Preamp to match Tundra

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Linnofil
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Post by Linnofil »

I can only agree with what Music Lover has said. The KK was better and I was very surprised by that. But it's not the finished product and the comparison wasn't a 100% fair. Having the Sagatun on top of the KK (on a Mimer K) is likely better than having it on a Mimer 3 shelf on its own. I'm pretty sure the Mimer K is that much better.

A fair comparison would be both preamps, in final state, on Mimer K with the correct power cables. Properly placed and installed. If doing this test at Music Lover the KDS would have to move from the Mimer K since there are only two Mimer K shelves in the rack. I look forward to such a test. That said, the really fair test would be to test the Sagatun against preamps in the same price range. Not comparing with something costing more than two times more! It just shows what we excpect from Lejonklou products.

I didn't mind the blind testing, it saved me from doing a lot of connecting! :-)
Last edited by Linnofil on 2014-05-05 18:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Erik »

I am surprised about the outcome as my own findings were that the Sagatun was better in every respect.
I had both preamps on the same shelf, but not at the same time of course.

To assume Sagatun on top of a KK on a mimer K is better than a Mimer 3 on its own is a brave guess. My initial tests shows that the Mimer K is better the less it is loaded.

/Erik
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Post by tokenbrit »

Music Lover wrote:ok, here it goes...
Disclaimer, I used exact same power cord as currently connected to my KK...
Do you mean the same cord swapped back & forth between Sagatun & KK, so the Sagatun got 'cold' between listening in the blind test?
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Post by stefan »

Linnofil wrote:....
That said, the really fare test would be to test the Sagatun against preamps in the same price range. Not comparing with something costing more than two times more! It just shows what we excpect from Lejonklou products.
...
True, a more fair comparison would be AK/1. If it's significantly better than that for 1/3 of KK/1 (which seems like the hinted price) that's really more than good enough. Certainly the most interesting Lejonklou product so far. Looking forward to May 21.
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Post by Ozzzy189 »

Letting a lejonklou product cool down in a test /listening environment is a schoolboy error if I may be so forthright.
II'm not having a go at anybody here, and I can't wait to hear it, but my experience with kikkin, tundra mono and stereo dictates that if they're powered down for even just a few minutes, it takes them time to get going again. From cold at least half an hour, from turning off briefly I'd say ten to fifteen minutes.
If iI'd had the opportunity to hear both I would have listened soley to the sagatun for at least a day, with music I was really really familiar with. Then go back to the kk, give it a few hours for a refresher so to speak , then go back to sagatun again and play the same music again once warmed up.
ADS3/SagMono/Tundra 2.2- . Totem Tribe Tower.
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Post by matthias »

Linnofil wrote:A fare comparison would be both preamps, in final state, on Mimer K with the correct power cables. Properly placed and installed. If doing this test at Music Lover the KDS would have to move from the Mimer K since there are only two Mimer K shelves in the rack. I look forward to such a test.
If you know how to do a fair comparison, why you did not?
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Post by matthias »

Linnofil wrote: That said, the really fare test would be to test the Sagatun against preamps in the same price range. Not comparing with something costing more than two times more! It just shows what we excpect from Lejonklou products.
No, I do not think so.
This is Fredriks statement on his Facebook site:

As you might have heard - or seen on instagram - I'm deep into a project of creating the ultimate analogue preamp. Not in fuctionality: On the contrary I will only include those that have absolutely no effect on the music. But in emotion: I want to make a unit that will take everyone's breath away when I play a song through it. If I can't make it that good, I see no reason to release it.

You have to compare Sagatun with the best in the range of a KK, but in a fair comparison..........
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Post by matthias »

Ozzzy189 wrote:Letting a lejonklou product cool down in a test /listening environment is a schoolboy error if I may be so forthright.
II'm not having a go at anybody here, and I can't wait to hear it, but my experience with kikkin, tundra mono and stereo dictates that if they're powered down for even just a few minutes, it takes them time to get going again. From cold at least half an hour, from turning off briefly I'd say ten to fifteen minutes.
If iI'd had the opportunity to hear both I would have listened soley to the sagatun for at least a day, with music I was really really familiar with. Then go back to the kk, give it a few hours for a refresher so to speak , then go back to sagatun again and play the same music again once warmed up.
+1
Some switched off preamps need to recover for one week after switching on. Regarding this point a preamp is much more sensitive than a poweramp.

KR
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Post by matthias »

Image

BTW,
Fredrik, did you try Sagatun with the plastic sleeves around the capacitors removed?
I think it could be a worthwhile improvement.

KR
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Post by Linnofil »

Erik wrote:I am surprised about the outcome as my own findings were that the Sagatun was better in every respect.
Yes, I was very surprised to!
Erik wrote:ITo assume Sagatun on top of a KK on a mimer K is better than a Mimer 3 on its own is a brave guess. My initial tests shows that the Mimer K is better the less it is loaded.
Yes, it's only a guess. It is based on the fact that a product placed on top of another product standing on a Mimer 3 is better than the product placed directly on a Tor shelf. (Tor is one step below Mimer 3 in performance, for those not familiar with the Harmonihyllan levels.) The point I was trying to make was that I don't think this was the sole reason for the surprising outcome in our tests.
matthias wrote:If you know how to do a fair comparison, why you did not?
We did not have a production Sagatun or the correct power cord and time is a limited resource.
Ozzzy189 wrote:Letting a lejonklou product cool down in a test /listening environment is a schoolboy error
I would not call Music Lover a schoolboy! :-) But I did not do any connecting, so I don't really know how it was done.

The reason for the surprising results might be a faulty prototype or some other wierd error that affected the results. I think that the Sagatun name sounds like the name of a wizzard in the Lord of The Rings trilogy. So maybe it just need a twist of Fredrik's magic wand/fingers? I'm just trying to report honestly what we heard at Music Lover, no less, no more.
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Post by tokenbrit »

Linnofil wrote:I'm just trying to report honestly what we heard at Music Lover, no less, no more.
Appreciated, and just trying to understand a little more of the method to interpret the result.
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Post by lejonklou »

I appreciate that Sagatun is compared with the best, regardless of the prices being different. That's what I will do as well.

In my opinion, Sagatun reaches optimal performance very quickly after being switched on. Others may disagree, but I have not experienced any long warm up time.
matthias wrote:Fredrik, did you try Sagatun with the plastic sleeves around the capacitors removed?
I think it could be a worthwhile improvement.
Thank you! I have never heard of this modification.
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Post by matthias »

lejonklou wrote:
matthias wrote:Fredrik, did you try Sagatun with the plastic sleeves around the capacitors removed?
I think it could be a worthwhile improvement.
Thank you! I have never heard of this modification.
Fredrik,
welcome, I removed all capacitor sleeves in my system and I like it. Two examples from the Far East:

http://static.wixstatic.com/media/0c9b5 ... ff35b7.jpg

http://static.wixstatic.com/media/0c9b5 ... d8eb27.jpg
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Post by Music Lover »

Matthias and Ozzzy189 - just sit back and relax.
I fully understand you running out of patience but time will tell how good Sagatun is.
I could have chosen not reporting anything as the conditions weren't perfect but please try to appreciate the effort and give me time sourcing a better power cord...
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by Ozzzy189 »

Hey, no worries. I'm sure i speak for everyone when i say we're grateful for any feedback at this early stage. Maybe the schoolboy error comment was slightly misconstrued, perhaps it has a slightly different meaning here in the UK ?
Like i said, i'm going to the hidden systems event, so at least i'll be able to make my own mind up. I may not have the technical know how of a lot of very clever folks on here, but i'll at least be able to see the gear and hear it with my own ears.
ADS3/SagMono/Tundra 2.2- . Totem Tribe Tower.
Lejonklou demos available in the N of England.
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Post by matthias »

Music Lover wrote:Matthias and Ozzzy189 - just sit back and relax.
I fully understand you running out of patience but time will tell how good Sagatun is.
I could have chosen not reporting anything as the conditions weren't perfect but please try to appreciate the effort and give me time sourcing a better power cord...
Music Lover,
Nevermind!
Very interesting that KK seems to be better after torque fine tuning.
So the mechanical integrity does play a great role.
Any thoughts about that?

KR
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Post by Rufus McDufus »

This to me is one significant problem with the KK in that it does need to be set up correctly in terms of torques. New ones can be very variable in quality. At least with Sagatun you're getting a more consistent product because Fredrik pays close attention to this.
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Post by Music Lover »

Rufus McDufus wrote:This to me is one significant problem with the KK in that it does need to be set up correctly in terms of torques. New ones can be very variable in quality. At least with Sagatun you're getting a more consistent product because Fredrik pays close attention to this.
To be fair, Linn have some stringency in their approach on torq, most other companies don't.
But Lejonklou is the only company totally obsessed with it, but this is just a result of the dedication towards maximal tunefulness. Torq is just one of the important parameters.
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by lejonklou »

matthias wrote:Fredrik,
welcome, I removed all capacitor sleeves in my system and I like it.
I assume you mean that it performs better, but could you perhaps describe the effect a bit more in detail?

The reason I get interested is that electrolythic capacitors are microphonic. If they rattle or become pressed against each other, performance is seriously affected. Many other small details also affect how well they perform, at least in my circuits.

I will evaluate this mod, but will do so very carefully and one capacitor at a time. So it will take some time. I don't assume that they will all benefit from the same treatment.
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Post by matthias »

lejonklou wrote:I assume you mean that it performs better, but could you perhaps describe the effect a bit more in detail?
The reason I get interested is that electrolythic capacitors are microphonic. If they rattle or become pressed against each other, performance is seriously affected. Many other small details also affect how well they perform, at least in my circuits.
I will evaluate this mod, but will do so very carefully and one capacitor at a time. So it will take some time. I don't assume that they will all benefit from the same treatment.
Electrolythic capacitors are microphonic, indeed.

Some years ago I did a nice test with my external passive crossover. I disconnected the speakers from the crossover, but left the crossover connected to the power ampflifier. Then I played some music and increased the volume level up to 3:00h at the volume pot. Now something odd happened: I could literally listen to the music through the crossover! The capacitors, resistors, coils and the board rattled induced by the signal from the power amp. It was heavily distorted, but nevertheless music. I put cast resin into the case of the crossover and this problem was solved.

Regarding the denuded capacitors I have to admit that I did not conduct a typical tune-dem. In my case I could perform an A-B test, but no A-B-A test. You are in the position to do it in the right way, e.g. with two GAIOs, one original and one with denuded caps.

I would describe the effect that the music is passed through the system in a more undisturbed manner, the dynamic expressions of Glenn Gould are more clear and the music is less distorted at very high volume levels, which I like very much.

A further benefit of denuding is the improved cooling and the resulting longevity of the caps.

It is very interesting to collect the removed sleeves in your hand and by crushing them in your fist you hear a very nasty noise: The sound of plastic.......
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Post by lejonklou »

Matthias: That electronics can emit sound when current flows through is not limited to crossovers. The same applies to the circuit boards in your amplifiers. Putting resin over them or in other ways applying heavy damping is, however, usually a recipy for musical disaster.

Regarding the caps, curiosity got the better of me. Instead of dealing with other crucial matters, I had to spend a couple of hours testing your tip. So I took Sagatun Proto 1 and chose the two most important (for performance) electrolythics. Those two have been moved around in relation to circuit board fasteners, moved away from parts that radiate heat, etc. You can easily hear in the music how they are treated.

I have capacitors selected and grouped, so I picked two that measure identically of each of these two types and rigged everything so that I could switch back and forth between capacitor 1A and 1B and between 2A and 2B. The numbers here are the two different caps while A and B are two specimen that should sound identical. But I wanted to verify this before applying any mod.

Listening to 1A versus 1B, there was practically no difference. Maybe one of them was a tiny bit better? It was hard to tell, but I decided to call that one 1A.
Listening to 2A versus 2B, I couldn't tell them apart and decided to call one of them 2A.

At this point I removed the plastic around 1B and 2B. Then I compared again, starting with 1A versus 1B. After more than 10 short pieces of music, I thought that maybe 1B was a tiny bit worse than 1A. But this was the same result as before I removed the plastic around 1B, so... not really any change.

With 2A versus 2B, I thought at first that 2B impressed a little more in the bass, but when I put on an old song by Cream I felt that 2A was more the real thing while 2B sounded a tad polished and less engaging. These differences were small, so I had to go back and forth a number of times to make sure. While this time the modified cap 2B seemed to perform worse, I'm not sure I'd notice if someone had done this mod without me knowing.

So not much luck with this mod, but I feel the experience was well worth the time spent.
Please note that in Sagatun, there is very little heat and power involved. No caps are even close to running warm. On the contrary, one of the secrets behind the performance of Sagatun is that the power has step by step been reduced in all circuits handling the signal. Less voltage and current creates less noise and distortion, and if this is applied with a 100% musical perspective (as opposed to the numbers game most designers are into), the result is more music.

In power amps there are caps that have an entirely different job. Instead of the cool vacation-like existence in Sagatun, some caps in Tundra are plowing fields and mining coal. I will try this mod on them too, later on.
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Post by matthias »

Fredrik,
very interesting, but allow me to propose a test with more caps involved. Some variations between the caps are compensated by the higher quantity of the caps.
I think two identical sounding GAIOs would be fine. Firstly GAIO is the cheapest part of your collection and secondly GAIO offers a higher gain than SAGATUN or TUNDRA which should make the differences more pronounced.
Both should be properly burned in, sitting permanently switched on on the same shelf and are to be connected to SAGATUN. If I am right there are 14 caps for both channels involved and you are able to compare the original one with the "denuded" one just by connecting the phono cable from the LP12 and the Silver ICs to SAGATUN.

I wish you all the best for your SAGATUN demo at Hidden Systems.
Have a blessed travel.

KR
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Post by Music Lover »

Ok then..finally located a better power cord and a retest was executed.
This time I had more time so a proper test was carried out, i.e. the KK and Sagatun standing alone on a Mimer K shelf.
No doubt Sagatun is more musical - Well Done Fredrik !!


Slightly OT but it's quite interesting to notice the impact of different power cords!
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by Erik »

Interesting.
Did you compare the power cords only? Was the power cord the main reason for the new outcome or was it to place it on its own shelf?

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Post by Music Lover »

It's difficult to compare different improvements in musicality, but with the Power One-cable Sagatun reproduce the music in a stiffer, more restless and impressive way. Seems the focus is moved away from musical understanding towards sound enhancements. Some "round earth" HIFI enthusiasts may consider P1 being the better cable.

With an optimal position on the shelf, Sagatun is just more musical. Some "round earth" HIFI enthusiasts may not notice the difference.

So...not easy to compare both these differences as they affect the performance in different ways but if I give it a try - the cable was possible not as big but more irritating due to the shift in focus. Using the correct cable everything settles down. Some "round earth" HIFI enthusiasts may consider the sound less impressive = worse.

In comparison the KK was less affected by cable and positioning.
It's all about musical understanding!
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