Lejonklou Tundra

Rufus McDufus · Post by **Rufus McDufus** » 2013-01-19 10:54

It's funny, I don't really notice the poorer sound quality when the Tundra is cold any more. When the amp was new it was really noticeable. I always turn the amps when not in use too so you'd think I'd hear it on every listen.

Flatcoat · Post by **Flatcoat** » 2013-01-19 11:16

The Tundra I sold to Sandgrown had not been used for about 6 weeks so that maybe an explanation.

Rufus McDufus wrote:It's funny, I don't really notice the poorer sound quality when the Tundra is cold any more. When the amp was new it was really noticeable. I always turn the amps when not in use too so you'd think I'd hear it on every listen.

Rufus McDufus · Post by **Rufus McDufus** » 2013-01-25 21:59

Here's a silly question! Has anyone chosen to check for any sound quality difference with the Tundra stereo with the front LEDs on or off? I've just been trying this and I've managed to convince myself there could be a difference. I'm not saying what I think sounds better though. Would be interested if anyone can think they can hear a difference :)

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2013-01-26 03:29

We came to the conclusion it sounded more musical with them on.

Rufus McDufus · Post by **Rufus McDufus** » 2013-01-26 09:04

Oh good - that's what I thought! It almost sounds a fraction louder with them on to me. I've kept the lights off til now but am pleasantly surprised.

anthony · Post by **anthony** » 2013-01-26 09:45

Rufus McDufus wrote:Oh good - that's what I thought! It almost sounds a fraction louder with them on to me. I've kept the lights off til now but am pleasantly surprised.

What an illuminating experiment!

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2013-01-26 17:11

anthony wrote:
Rufus McDufus wrote:Oh good - that's what I thought! It almost sounds a fraction louder with them on to me. I've kept the lights off til now but am pleasantly surprised.
What an illuminating experiment!

Yes, it takes a bright person to conduct it.

Actually we all hoped it would sound better with them off as we tend to like to listen in the dark. I have put a piece of black felt on my Radikal that absorbs almost all the light and Keith tapes over the displays on all his equipment.

Considering that the Radikal sounds better with the light plugged in than with it disconnected, I wasn't surprised with the result on the Tundra. If you balance a power supply perfectly for a given condition, changing that condition will result in a musical loss. Just another sign of how well executed the Tundra amps are.

tokenbrit · Post by **tokenbrit** » 2013-01-27 01:18

Stan Laurel wrote:You can lead a horse to water, but a Tundra must be LED

;)

Post by **lejonklou** » 2013-01-27 18:28

Rufus McDufus wrote:Has anyone chosen to check for any sound quality difference with the Tundra stereo with the front LEDs on or off?

I agree with you that Tundra sounds a tiny bit better with the blue lights on.

There's actually a long story behind those LED's, the on/off switch and the related performance difference. The switch was added on request from a tester who, like Thomas, likes to listen in the dark. When I found that it sounded a tiny bit better with the LED's on, I tried some fixes that should have made 'off' sound as good as 'on' . But they didn't work! For some reason that I don't quite understand - yet! - those LED's do something right.

I'll let you know when I've figured out how to make the 'off' position sound as good as 'on'.

rowlandhills · Post by **rowlandhills** » 2013-01-27 20:55

lejonklou wrote:I'll let you know when I've figured out how to make the 'off' position sound as good as 'on'.

It may sound like a silly idea, but could you use the switch to toggle between two different LEDs. One would be external, for people who want to see it, and the other internal, for those who don't want to see the LED. The rest of the amp would always see a load of one LED and thus sound at its best.

It's a bit of an inelegant solution, but would seem to solve the problem!

Post by **lejonklou** » 2013-01-27 21:55

rowlandhills wrote:It may sound like a silly idea, but could you use the switch to toggle between two different LEDs. One would be external, for people who want to see it, and the other internal, for those who don't want to see the LED.

Yes, I thought of that! But this solution felt a bit annoying, as the internal LED's would have to be well wrapped up to be entirely invisible. I'd much rather figure out why sinking the same current with other components doesn't give the same result.

There was a similar story with the volume indicator of Kikkin. In the first version, Kikkin sounded best with the colour LED on. It seemed counter-intuitive but whenever it was switched off, something was lost in the music. I think it was about a year later that I figured out the reason. The fix required an additional ground lead to the colour LED driver, which separated return currents. Then the sound was best with the light off!

Ozzzy189 · Post by **Ozzzy189** » 2013-01-29 17:11

hi guys. it looks like we've finally sold our house. so in a month or so i'll be packing up the majik ds and the exotik and the ninkas... leave two lk140's and an lk 85 with active cards.
i'm thinking of selling them on ebay and buying a new amp/s for the new house, and to be honest, i'm thinking of taking the ninkas back to passive single wired.
my dilema is, at what point do the speakers satrt to hold the system back ?
i understand that there's still a fair bit to come from them, but would i be better selling those too or going for either a tundra, or stretch to a pair of monos and keep them ?
i've had them for yonks and theyre like new still, and i would love to get the best out of them.
i was hoping to raise about £1000 from selling the lk amps and then looking at my options.
these will certainly include fredriks amps and probably some linn amps- a pair of 3200's maybe.
just wondering what you guys think.
ideally klimax renew into two tundra mono and sell the ds and exotik, but i can't afford that tbh.
cheers.
oz

anthony · Post by **anthony** » 2013-01-29 17:20

Ozzzy189 wrote:hi guys. it looks like we've finally sold our house. so in a month or so i'll be packing up the majik ds and the exotik and the ninkas... leave two lk140's and an lk 85 with active cards.
i'm thinking of selling them on ebay and buying a new amp/s for the new house, and to be honest, i'm thinking of taking the ninkas back to passive single wired.
my dilema is, at what point do the speakers satrt to hold the system back ?
i understand that there's still a fair bit to come from them, but would i be better selling those too or going for either a tundra, or stretch to a pair of monos and keep them ?
i've had them for yonks and theyre like new still, and i would love to get the best out of them.
i was hoping to raise about £1000 from selling the lk amps and then looking at my options.
these will certainly include fredriks amps and probably some linn amps- a pair of 3200's maybe.
just wondering what you guys think.
ideally klimax renew into two tundra mono and sell the ds and exotik, but i can't afford that tbh.
cheers.
oz

A nice balance would be KDS/Renew, KK1/ AkurateKontrol1, Tundra, Ninkas, they will still sound great.

tmilligan · Post by **tmilligan** » 2013-01-29 17:21

Ozzzy189 wrote:hi guys. it looks like we've finally sold our house. so in a month or so i'll be packing up the majik ds and the exotik and the ninkas... leave two lk140's and an lk 85 with active cards.
i'm thinking of selling them on ebay and buying a new amp/s for the new house, and to be honest, i'm thinking of taking the ninkas back to passive single wired.
my dilema is, at what point do the speakers satrt to hold the system back ?
i understand that there's still a fair bit to come from them, but would i be better selling those too or going for either a tundra, or stretch to a pair of monos and keep them ?
i've had them for yonks and theyre like new still, and i would love to get the best out of them.
i was hoping to raise about £1000 from selling the lk amps and then looking at my options.
these will certainly include fredriks amps and probably some linn amps- a pair of 3200's maybe.
just wondering what you guys think.
ideally klimax renew into two tundra mono and sell the ds and exotik, but i can't afford that tbh.
cheers.
oz

Do you need extra inputs or do you just use the DS? I run a Klimax Renew - Tundra - 109 set up. Minimal and very enjoyable!

Flatcoat · Post by **Flatcoat** » 2013-01-29 17:27

Definitely keep the Ninkas. I was using a pair in the summer sitting in front of my 350's and driven by Tundra/KK/KDS and they sounded absolutely stunning. There is something very special about Ninkas. Years ago I was using them with CD12/5103/Solos and that is certainly one of the better systems I have owned.

Ozzzy189 wrote:hi guys. it looks like we've finally sold our house. so in a month or so i'll be packing up the majik ds and the exotik and the ninkas... leave two lk140's and an lk 85 with active cards.
i'm thinking of selling them on ebay and buying a new amp/s for the new house, and to be honest, i'm thinking of taking the ninkas back to passive single wired.
my dilema is, at what point do the speakers satrt to hold the system back ?
i understand that there's still a fair bit to come from them, but would i be better selling those too or going for either a tundra, or stretch to a pair of monos and keep them ?
i've had them for yonks and theyre like new still, and i would love to get the best out of them.
i was hoping to raise about £1000 from selling the lk amps and then looking at my options.
these will certainly include fredriks amps and probably some linn amps- a pair of 3200's maybe.
just wondering what you guys think.
ideally klimax renew into two tundra mono and sell the ds and exotik, but i can't afford that tbh.
cheers.
oz

Rufus McDufus · Post by **Rufus McDufus** » 2013-01-29 17:48

A Kikkin could be an option. I replaced an Akurate Kontrol/0D with a Kikkin and preferred it. More transparent and did exactly what I wanted it to. I liked it without a pre-amp but found the Kikkin just took the slightly harsh edge off without adding any of its own character. Irritatingly I heard a KK/1 not long after which is a rather special bit of kit so replaced the Kikkin but it's definitely a keeper for me for another system one day.

If you're planning to go Klimax level then Monos would be good but for the money you may be better off going Tundra stereo which still knocks the socks off the LK amps (and I had 2 LK140s for ten years plus and loved them dearly). I prefer the Tundra stereo to a Klimax Chakra Twin as again I feel they add to much of their own character to the sound.

Ozzzy189 · Post by **Ozzzy189** » 2013-01-30 11:15

hi guys. thanks for the replies.
the exotik is dynamiked, so is an ak/0 in all but name, but i'll only ever have one source, so i a slightly undecided about keeping it. however, if i sold it, i'd then have to sell the mds too, so would look for an ak renew ds or something.
the ninks will be keepers i reckon. i always said they'd be last to go.
I think the amps will definatley be changed, but the other ds and pre ? maybe not. i don't have a massive budget, but would think about the tundra solos if they were a good bit better than two 3200's or a tundra.

Rufus McDufus · Post by **Rufus McDufus** » 2013-01-30 12:27

You have so many choices yet so many possible pitfalls! Two Tundra Monos may be a bit 'power amp heavy', probably not dissimilar to having two Solos. A lot cheaper than Solos but still quite pricey. If you're planning going Klimax level with the rest of the gear then it makes sense, but 'source first' would reap more immediate gains, though you obviously already have a fine source player.
The LK amps and Ninkas do have a certain synergy together which (IMHO of course) makes them more difficult to match with other bits of non-LK kit. The Ninkas are probably more forgiving than the LK amps though.
After my experience with Akurate power amps I'd avoid them. Rather over-complicated inside (more akin to computers inside than a power amp!) and need a fair bit of fettling to get the best out of them. Running Aktiv cards in them proved a nightmare for me as I could not get it sounding just right! Tundra Stereo is in a different league IMHO. Not dissing Akurate power amps as a lot of people are very happy with them, I just didn't get on with them and the Tundra Stereo was a revelation for me in comparison and my HiFi life got a whole lot easier.

Ozzzy189 · Post by **Ozzzy189** » 2013-01-31 21:21

hi rufus. thanks for your input. i'm not afraid of the monos, i'm a great beleiever in giving the speakers as much quality amplification as poss , even if it means that i don't always follow the source first rule.
i personally think i'd get more benefit from upgrading the amps over anything pound for pound.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2013-02-27 23:48

Tundra is now in version 1.2.

I have mentioned this upgrade before, first at the demo in Gothenburgh and then in London. I have, however, been too busy to share any details. But now is the time.

The upgrade consist of changing 14 electromechanical parts and retuning the idling currents. The upgrade is free of charge, but the unit needs to be returned to Lejonklou HiFi and return postage will be charged, rounded up to the nearest SEK100/€10/£10. Inside the European Union, units can be shipped directly, or with the help of your retailer. Outside of Europe, things can get rather tricky with customs, so you need to contact me to sort out the procedure.

In depth information follows:
The electromechanical parts are not expensive, just better sounding models that I found when developing Mono. The retuning of idling currents is time consuming, as it has to be measured, heated overnight and then tuned while measuring and listening. Previously, the tuning of idling currents in each Tundra was performed by measuring only. I had spent a lot of time mapping how measurements correlated to listening tests, and drew the conclusion that I could eliminate the listening part. It was more effective and I thought the result would be identical.

When working on Tundra Mono, I realised that optimal performance was not always at the exact same numbers that were measured. Sometimes it sounded best just a little below the ideal measurement. And sometimes it sounded best just a little above it. So for Tundra Mono, I decided to set the idling current by measurement AND ear. This simply gave the most consistent results. Every Mono performs at the peak of its performance. Now with version 1.2, Tundra stereo is tuned in the same way.

The musical improvement that version 1.2 brings varies slightly between units. Some Tundra's will only benefit from the electromechanical part change, as their idling currents are already spot on. Others will benefit a bit more, when their idling currents become optimised.

That the 1.2 upgrade became free of charge is something my company advisors initially did not like. Their point was that the upgrade takes a lot of time and that I should charge accordingly. But my point is that there are currently a number of Tundra's on the second hand market, sold by people wanting to buy Mono's. Making the upgrade free of charge, regardless of whether you bought it new or second hand, will benefit second hand market sales. Which in turn will benefit my sales. I hope you will appreciate my decision.

tmilligan · Post by **tmilligan** » 2013-02-28 08:22

Very interesting as ever Fredrik, thank you!

My Tundra 1.0 will be on its way to you as soon as I can work out how to live without it for a week or so...

Post by **lejonklou** » 2013-02-28 10:50

I'm looking forward to it, tmilligan!

Rufus McDufus · Post by **Rufus McDufus** » 2013-03-04 20:06

Got my Tundra Stereos back from Fredrik this afternoon, converted to 1.2 spec. Also got my Monos, but wrong thread for that!

I've been using a 4200 while the Tundras have been away (thanks Chris from Hidden Systems - you are too generous) and interestingly the 4200 works really well with the temporary speakers I have at the moment (Audiovector Si3 Super - long story). I've actually been really enjoying this combination for a few weeks while the Tundras have been away. It's completely different sonically - the AVs are not dissimilar to 242s and it's a very comforting rather bass-heavy sound. Slightly lacking in detail but very enjoyable. I did own first-gen 4200s but I'm sure this sounds better. Also these AV speakers have traditional tweeters so it's a slightly looser/slower sound than I'm used to with my higher-range AVs.

Anyhow bearing in mind I've been away from the Tundra stereos for a while, gave Chris's a listen today and tried mine out for a couple of hours before packing up ready for selling ( :( ). The detail!!! It is so different from the 4200 in terms of detail. Musicality and being able to follow the tune - well it is just supreme. Clearly this is the number one aspect of this amp, it is so easy to follow every instrument and vocals.
I've had the Tundra s for nearly a year but I'm pretty convinced the 1.2 upgrade is large. To be honest I didn't find the 1.1 upgrade so big, but this is really something.

PSive · Post by **PSive** » 2013-04-02 23:04

I have literally just got my hands on a Tundra 1.2, replacing a 4200 bi-amping a pair of B&W CM9s.

I have listened for about 1/2 hour. Musical detail is supremely better, as is texture and the presentation of voices. Just beautiful. Bach, with all his complex lines sounds brilliant too.

But it does lack a touch of bass compared with the 4200 setup. Do you think this will change when it gets warmed up and run in, or are there any settings I can use on the Klimax Kontrol to compensate?

HIDDENSYSTEMS · Post by **HIDDENSYSTEMS** » 2013-04-03 08:11

If new yes will sound better after a couple of weeks. Listening for 30 mins is the min. I'd judge after 60mins. Lack of bass depends on your setup but nothing on KK to adjust. Do you remember amps with "loudness" bass boost?

Lejonklou Tundra

Following on from Rufus's comment