Lejonklou Tundra

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anthony
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Tundra

Post by anthony »

In defence of the Solos, mine needed at least a month to sound their best.
When Fredrik visited me with the Tundra we felt the Solos had a slight advantage. I believe Fredrik felt the same, although I am sure he will correct me!
The conclusion was the Tundra varied between being as good as a "cold" twin, or better. This, to be fair to the Tundra, was before the upgrade. The system was KDS/1, KK/1 350P, Quadraspires Q4 tables, and all Linn cables.
Just out of interest,how old were the Solos?
Were you using 110Volts, I suppose their could be many variances, between our tests.
If anyone wishes to hear a similar Dem, I am a stockist of the Tundra.
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Post by macrotech2 »

Thomas, thanks for a very informative post. Just to confirm that you were running the 242s single wired with K20 and using the standard Linn strips to connect the speaker inputs?

At the dem Anthony is referring to I thought there was no question that the Tundra was significantly better than the cold Twin. However the Solos had a grip and control that the Tundra couldn't match, but the Tundra still sounded extremely musical. It's this ability to involve you in the music which is remarkable about the Tundra.

Hoping to hear the Tundra / Solo comparison on 242s myself soon - would be even better to try two Tundra as well.

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Post by hcl »

ThomasOK wrote:Time for a little (hah!) update on the Tundra amplifier. Since my previous report there have been a few changes. First, the Tundra made a little voyage to Tokenbrit and has logged in a fair number more hours. Second, when it came back it was updated to V1.1 with the new ferrites and it was found they do make a noticeable performance improvement.

...

The system used for these comparisons of the Tundra and Solo/Ds consisted of ADS/1, KK/1/D and latest version 242s (what I call Mk3s) with the most recent cabinets and bases. Wiring was all Linn Silvers and speaker cables were long K20 that we have installed in the floor. All electronics on Quadraspire Q4 racks.
Interesting report. It will be very interesting to hear the 1.1 version.

Strange system you did the comparison in though. ADS/1 is not exactly what I would prefer to use when comparing top of the line power amps.
ThomasOK wrote:Amazing work, Fredrik!
No question. Having listened to the improvement 2xTundra was over 1xTundra a couple of weeks ago I think it will be interesting to follow the development of the Tundra.
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Post by Rufus McDufus »

I was goingto ask ThomasOK what he thought of 2 Tundras vs one - then realised a few othes of you were thinking the same thing!

Fredrik & I listened to 2 Tundras (just one channel of each into a K350A single-wired) in an all-Klimax system at WYSAH when he visited a couple of months ago and I have to admit I found it significantly better with two amps over one - which is really saying something because one on its own is excellent. I don't think I actually asked Fredrik for his opinion of how things sounded that day!
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Post by ThomasOK »

A few interesting questions here. The Solos were about 3 years old but with new Dynamiks that are a few weeks old. So neither the Tundra nor the Dynamiks in the Solos have more than about a month break-in. This seemed a reasonable amount of time to me. The comparisons were done at the 120 Volts that is standard in the US. Linn does hint that the Solos will produce a bit more power at 240 Volts but I have found most Hi-Fi gear sounds better at 240. However, almost nobody runs it that way here. As long as the Solos are here (they are customer units) we will be going back and forth between them and the Tundra. If anything in their relative performance changes I will further update.

Connection was single-wired K20 with Linn bridging strips and connected, I believe, to tweeter input.

I used an ADS/1 as a source as it is currently the best digital source we have on display. Since it substantially outperforms the old digital reference of the CD12, and obviously gives enough information to hear these differences, I find it more than adequate. Certainly the ability to quickly and easily call up different tracks and pause and restart as needed helps with the comparisons.

I did not compare two Tundras to the Solos because I don't have two Tundras yet! I hope to be in a position to order several more in for stock soon and Overture Audio will surely be getting a demo unit which will allow listening to two. I thought about mentioning the idea of using two Tundras or of the possible mono Tundra Fredrik is investigating but I felt there was no reason to detract from the spectacular results the Tundra gave all by itself! I do know that Fredrik was impressed by the improvement the two Tundras made over a single unit and that this caused him to immediately look into designing a mono Tundra (which has already benefited us with the 1.1 upgrade). Personally, I find the idea of a substantially better Tundra tantalizing and a bit scary.
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Post by macrotech2 »

Here's something scary and interesting to try: 242s Aktiv with five Tundra and a tunebox - still not much more than a single pair of Solos!

Fredrik - are you actually looking at mono Tundra now? I thought you had another project planned first?

Also I assume that, for some reason, WYSAH didn't take on the Tundra - it seems that only Anthony and Hidden Systems are UK stockists.
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Post by HIDDENSYSTEMS »

I upgraded our Tundra to 1.1 this morning after promising myself to do a week ago. We are all calibrated up with Fredriks world.
An afternoon of burn in and running I am very very impressed. Yes well worth doing.Loving it, so musical, if there was a bass signature it's gone.

To celebrate Fredrik's achievement HiddenSystems offer those in the UK that didn't buy from us a free upgrade 1.0 to 1.1 on condition they time out to visit us. RG27 8PE - on the A30, between Camberley and Basingstoke, one hour 35 mins from West London, Junction 4A M3. A plug - we have a LINN event this Friday 29th June.

I am really pleased that Anthony and HiddenSystems ears were in tune with Fredriks concept day one.

Just listening to a temporary system of ADS/1, Exotik DA Dyn, Tundra 1.1 and old Kans - mad good. A great system track - Linn Records - Ian Shaw - "Case of You" 48k 24 bit as a reference. This was given to LINN dealers when DS was launched in Cara days pre Dynamik, pre Renew frenzy at MP3, CD and studio master. I think real progress to listen to the same track years later.

Chris Fuller - HiddenSystems
http://www.hiddensystems.co.uk
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Post by Music Lover »

ThomasOK wrote:I used an ADS/1 as a source as it is currently the best digital source we have on display. Since it substantially outperforms the old digital reference of the CD12, and obviously gives enough information to hear these differences, I find it more than adequate.
No offence but as a source first addict I disagree.
A KDS would have made it even easier to compare the amps.
Therefore, a second test with KDS as a source would be a great read for all of us.

Using the latest version of Harmonihyllan for some weeks, it proves it again. Source first rules!
It's simply mind-blowing to hear how a rack can give an enhancement in the same ball park as a source upgrade.
I now compared one and two Tundras with various Linn amps and KDS, KK, all equipment on Harmonihyllan - this many times and in different locations.
Harmonihyllan clearly make the different amp characteristics easier to hear - making it easier to appreciate the strengths of Tundra.
Without testing Tundra with both KDS and ADS, I'm convinced the same applies for the source based on previous KDS vs ADS tests.
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by Erik »

Music Lover wrote:
ThomasOK wrote:I used an ADS/1 as a source as it is currently the best digital source we have on display. Since it substantially outperforms the old digital reference of the CD12, and obviously gives enough information to hear these differences, I find it more than adequate.
No offence but as a source first addict I disagree.
A KDS would have made it even easier to compare the amps.
Therefore, a second test with KDS as a source would be a great read for all of us.

Using the latest version of Harmonihyllan for some weeks, it proves it again. Source first rules!
It's simply mind-blowing to hear how a rack can give an enhancement in the same ball park as a source upgrade.
I now compared one and two Tundras with various Linn amps and KDS, KK, all equipment on Harmonihyllan - this many times and in different locations.
Harmonihyllan clearly make the different amp characteristics easier to hear - making it easier to appreciate the strengths of Tundra.
Without testing Tundra with both KDS and ADS, I'm convinced the same applies for the source based on previous KDS vs ADS tests.
No offense, but then you have to use a LP 12 SE.

/Erik

PS. Couldn't resist. DS.
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Post by ThomasOK »

Erik wrote:
Music Lover wrote:
ThomasOK wrote:I used an ADS/1 as a source as it is currently the best digital source we have on display. Since it substantially outperforms the old digital reference of the CD12, and obviously gives enough information to hear these differences, I find it more than adequate.
No offence but as a source first addict I disagree.
A KDS would have made it even easier to compare the amps.
Therefore, a second test with KDS as a source would be a great read for all of us.

Using the latest version of Harmonihyllan for some weeks, it proves it again. Source first rules!
It's simply mind-blowing to hear how a rack can give an enhancement in the same ball park as a source upgrade.
I now compared one and two Tundras with various Linn amps and KDS, KK, all equipment on Harmonihyllan - this many times and in different locations.
Harmonihyllan clearly make the different amp characteristics easier to hear - making it easier to appreciate the strengths of Tundra.
Without testing Tundra with both KDS and ADS, I'm convinced the same applies for the source based on previous KDS vs ADS tests.
No offense, but then you have to use a LP 12 SE.

/Erik

PS. Couldn't resist. DS.
Beat me to it Erik. Second test will feature the ultimate source - a fully spec'd LP12. None of this KDS bull! ;-) If you really want to hear the music you keep it analog. The LP12 was not used in this latest test (although it was in the earlier one) as the one I will be using had not completed fine tuning. It will be ready soon, will be pressed into service and a report will be made.

Despite all that, and despite being a source first person myself, I think the important part of the quote from Music Lover is "A KDS would have made it even easier to compare the amps." Yes, a better source will make it easier but a really good but a bit lesser source will still allow you to hear the same differences. Otherwise how was Linn able to develop the Akiva without the Keel and Radikal? How was Fredrik able to develop the Tundra mainly with an Adikt? (Not to say that he didn't listen to it with other cartridges.) Certainly nobody here doubts that the ADS/1, which some feel is close to a KDS/0, outstrips pretty much any other digital source you could have other than a KDS. So, yeah, it would likely have made my listening easier but it wouldn't have changed what I heard or the conclusions.

Meanwhile - analog will tell!

PS. Music Lover, I would love to hear more about the "latest" Harmonihyllan rack. Are we talking the Mimer 3.1 with the Spruce lower shelf as Fredrik has described or is there some further development I should be aware of. Despite being a sales agent in the US for them I don't get the news here unless I go to the website and google translate the news Anders has published. And even that is not always the latest info.
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Post by Music Lover »

Erik wrote: No offense, but then you have to use a LP 12 SE.
Correct!!
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by Ozzzy189 »

It seems like Colin macey has his knickers in a twist over on the linn forums.....
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Post by lunch »

Ozzzy189 wrote:It seems like Colin macey has his knickers in a twist over on the linn forums.....
Perhaps. Still an interesting read, though.
http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=17434

Better than Solos or worse than Majik...?

WTF
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Post by Rufus McDufus »

It's funny that I & a few others appear to have become part of Fredrik's black ops team!
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Post by macrotech2 »

Rufus McDufus wrote:It's funny that I & a few others appear to have become part of Fredrik's black ops team!
Do we have a uniform and call sign?
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Post by SaltyDog »

The premise that all sales in a certain geographical area belong to Colin filter comes in handy.

Does not do himself any favors IMHO.

With the filter applied, his contributions are usually interesting. Reminds me of the corporate monthly figures being the driving force, rather than developing long term relationships. But in all fairness it is business to him. It is hard to not take things you are passionate about personally.

As a father I learned that being taken for granted is actually a goal. But not by everyone.

Hope this does not have a lasting affect on the relationships.
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Post by lejonklou »

I don't participate in discussions at any other forums than this one and melodik.nu, which is in Swedish. It would take up too much time and I would have less energy left for development.

I was pointed to the Tundra discussion on the Linn Forums and since some of the things said there were incorrect, I will clarify them here:

• On my so far only visit to the UK to demonstrate Tundra, I visited Hidden Systems, Anthony Lockwood and WYSAH. I had no Tundra retailers in the UK back then and I made it perfectly clear to everyone (including Colin Macey at WYSAH, who asked me about my sales policy while I was at his shop) that any customers could order Tundra directly from me, if they so wished, to the Recommended Retail Price (RRP) of £2800. Direct sales are always to the RRP, never discounted.

• After Hidden Systems and Anthony Lockwood decided to become Tundra retailers, all enquiries from South England are directed to the local retailers. The same policy applies to any area of the world: When there are no Lejonklou retailers or distributors, I will sell direct. When there are retailers or a distributor, direct sales will stop. Simple system.

• While not everyone appreciates the qualities of Tundra, I'm very pleased that the vast majority of people who've listened to it are thrilled by its focus on the musical message. Yes, it does sound a bit different. Yes, it may take a little while until its qualities become apparent and you start finding it difficult to turn the music off. Yes, the circuit design is quite radical and has a low continuous (static test tones) power rating. Yes, it will play much louder than you think, because music is dynamic, not static.
No, I don't comment on how I think it compares to other popular power amps. But I do consider Tundra to be a Must Hear. The more people who experience it and make their own minds up, the happier I am.
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Post by ThomasOK »

I posted my comments to some of what was said on that thread over there, I will not repeat them here as they would be out of context.
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Post by ThomasOK »

I promised an update with the LP12 so here it is – don’t expect any startling revelations. The LP12 is a Black Ash with all the goodies: Radikal, Keel, Ekos SE, low hours Akiva, Urika. Everything torqued to tightest tolerances. Connected by Linn Silvers to the same system listed in the last posting. As to the rack it has the KK/1/D on the top, isolated shelf, then Tundra then SoloDs each on their own shelf then Uphorik (not used for this) and then Radikal. The LP12 is on a QS Wall shelf mounted into a thick plywood board attached to the studs. It is about as solid as you can get a QS WALL SHELF.

I actually did not find it any easier to hear the differences between the amps with the LP12 – in fact it seemed a touch harder. Maybe the amps have to work more to help your ear sort out a signal that was once digital? In addition I want to reiterate that I find these amps overall to be very close – I could happily listen to either of them with a high-quality source and speakers. To me the differences are quite small and I don’t really hear a lot of musical difference between them as some others have. This is, of course, with SoloDs, the Tundra V1.1 and the Longwell AC cables on all the amps.

I also feel the differences I reported with the v1.0 Tundra and non-Dynamik Solos have been greatly diminished by the upgrades. Obviously the Dynamik allows the Solos to handle the louder/more complex music better making the difference in this quality very small if not non-existent. Also I find only a very small difference in the smoothness of these amps which I suspect has to do with the v1.1 upgrade on the Tundra but could also be the extra detail on the SoloDs removing some of the smoothness.

I listened to these systems yesterday and today with a number of musical pieces but will mostly detail what I heard today with a few of those. I started today with “Tom’s Diner’ by Suzanne Vega from the album of he same name. This is a really cool song sung a cappella so it would certainly show up any differences having to do with simple music. What I found on this was quite interesting: on the Solos it sounded like Suzanne was in the room, with the Tundra it sounded like you were hearing her in the studio. In both cases it was easy to follow her singing and her intonation. I don’t know which is the more correct rendition but I found myself liking the Solos a touch more on this track. Then I went to another track on the same album, the same “Calypso” track I found so engrossing through the ADS/1. Well, vinyl certainly showed its considerable musical superiority here! Although there were a couple of small pops and clicks at the beginning the additional power and texture in the bass and the more natural sound of the cymbals, the ability to hear the quality of the metal and how the cymbal was struck, made the vinyl version of this song even more appealing – you were caressed more thoroughly. Compared to the differences between vinyl and ADS/1 streaming the differences between the amps were again small. The bass seemed slightly weightier on the Solos as it did on a later track as well but otherwise the balance seemed similar. What I did find was that there was more texture to the instruments and Suzanne’s voice on the Tundra. The track starts out with what I think is a synthesized sound designed to mimic whale song. This it does very well and the deeper part of it comes through a bit better on the Tundra. Also the punch of the drums, the nuance of the vocals, indeed the texture of all the instruments seemed just a bit more real on the Tundra. On this track I enjoyed the Tundra more.

I then put on a bit of a torture track form the Steely Dan “Aja” album. Torture in that it had a lot going on from the beginning with some potent bass and is also on a pretty badly warped record which the Akiva/Ekos SE nevertheless tracks quite well. Only a slight touch of driver motion was heard in the fisrt couple of revolutions of the track “Black Cow”. On this the Solos once again showed a touch more bass weight which I liked on this track. Yet still I noticed the repetitive beat on the snare had more different texture from one beat to the next on the Tundra. Other strands of the music were rendered more cleanly on the Tundra as well. I had a hard time with this one as I would like the Solos for the extra bass weight and the touch more smoothness and then I would like the Tundra for the ability to hear more of what was going on. I found which I preferred depended on what characteristics I was listening for. When I decided to listen to the entire track on each just for pleasure I have to say I pretty much liked them equally well. One thing that was very obvious in this was that the drum sound on the Suzanne Vega album was much cleaner and sounded more like drums I have played, the drums on Aja sounding heavier and less distinct – although this may have been the type of sound they were looking for in the studio, it does work with the music.

The last track I used was “Do Nothin’ Till You Hear From Me” form the album “This One’s For Blanton” by Duke Ellington and Ray Brown. Here I found the extra weightiness of the Solos less noticeable but I did find the additional depth of texture from the Tundra made the piano notes and overtones sound more real and natural and the bass sound more like it was here. In the strictest Tune Methods terms I would say that the Tundra made it slightly easier to follow but it was very close and both were excellent on this count. I liked the Tundra a bit better on this.

Yesterday I listened to more the Suzanne Vega and some more pieces as well from Porcupine Tree and Norah Jones. Her new album …Little Broken Hearts is musically interesting and quite good, it is mixed heavy on the bass, which didn’t favor the Solos, though I still found my preference changed from track to track. Unfortunately the "special” white vinyl is quite noisy – I hope a good record cleaning will clear it up. Overall the musical findings were quite similar to the above and I think those three records give you a good representation of what I heard.

So again, no big revelations. Two really exceptional amps, indeed the two best I have ever heard, that to me share more similarities than differences. I still find the Tundra has the ability to play quite loud on 242s without stress regardless of the complexity of the music and I would have to say that I have to push the music beyond its natural volume level with almost any piece of music to cause any audible distress in the Tundra – and distress in the Tundra is quite audible! (I believe that each piece of music has a volume at which it sounds the most natural and setting the volume above or below that level will sound less natural. This is something that Ross Walker had in his preamp manuals way back in the Quad 33 days. I find even a half dB variance makes it less natural.) I have come away from this feeling that I could live equally well with either SoloDs or a Tundra (or two) in my system with possibly a slight leaning in the Tundra direction. I could afford to live with the Tundra much more easily. Again a special piece of gear in my estimation.
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Post by matthias »

ThomasOK wrote: So again, no big revelations. Two really exceptional amps, indeed the two best I have ever heard, that to me share more similarities than differences.
Thomas,
do you think the outcome of these comparisons could be different in countries with a 230/240V supply?

KR
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Post by haraldur »

I just read the WYSAH review on uklinn forum and found it to express myself careful: missleading. To my ears it is excellent. Ofcourse everybody has the right to their opinioun but,it felt like the whole post had to do with something else. If tundra is a hype,well,in that case i am Santa. Good stuff deseves credit!
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Post by Ozzzy189 »

Apparently i set up the avf thread as a selling thread. Colin, that borders on libelous.
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Post by macrotech2 »

Ozzzy189 wrote:Apparently i set up the avf thread as a selling thread. Colin, that borders on libelous.
As you know from my postings over there I strongly disagree with Colin's comments and the extreme way he made them. Having said that though the AVF thread did come across to me as a little heavy-handed. Certainly not as blatant as Colin has suggested though.
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Post by lejonklou »

I find it interesting that Tundra has caused such an emotional response and that opinions have been so strong. Most people who've heard it have been very impressed by its qualities and some have dismissed it entirely. I'm not sure if I can recall any opinion in between those two.

Looking back at how Linn once divided the audio enthusiasts in followers and enemies, it was partly due to their radical position on how to judge quality of musical reproduction, dismissing both the reductionist belief in specifications (frequency response, watts, noise and distortion figures etc) and audiophile descriptions of sound (soundstage, treble sweetness, midrange clarity, blackness between notes etc). But it was also due to the people promoting and selling Linn, such as Ivor and the former Swedish distributor, who seemed to enjoy stirring up strong controversy. While I enthusiastically endorsed Linn's view of judging performance by musical merits in the late 80's, I have trouble seeing myself as being intentionally confrontational.

Still that old love-it-or-hate-it pattern seems to have reappeared. And it's interesting to once again hear the same arguments that Linn's enemies have repeated over the years: It's a fanclub (or secret squirrel club) with religious followers, the product is terrible and specifications inadequate, etc.

While I fully respect honest opinions and don't expect Tundra to please everyone (but am pleased that the majority of listeners have been very positive), there's occasionally also politics involved. I have not spent much time on promoting Tundra or finding new retailers, as my experience from previous product launches is that those who are curious and interested will usually show up by themselves. And I'm not in a hurry, I work long term. Solid skills and real enthusiasm for the product are the two most important criteria for becoming a reseller.

Some have expressed concern that the recent "attack" on the Linn Forums will make it more difficult to find a Tundra on demonstration, but I can happily report this is not what appears to happen. After two quiet weeks (during which I've been experimenting with a possible mono version of Tundra), I've now received one order and two requests for selling it, all within 24 hours. So I'm not troubled by the sudden controversy and will continue letting the product speak for itself.

Apologies, however, for the lack of Tundra info on the website. It will be taken care of in July.
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Post by ThomasOK »

matthias wrote:
ThomasOK wrote: So again, no big revelations. Two really exceptional amps, indeed the two best I have ever heard, that to me share more similarities than differences.
Thomas,
do you think the outcome of these comparisons could be different in countries with a 230/240V supply?

KR
matthias
Certainly it could have an effect. I can guarantee you that Linn components are more musical at 240 Volts, as are my ATC 100s. Linn even states in the Solo manual that you will not be able to achieve full continuous power with a low voltage connection and that installing 240 Volt line will not only allow more power (I believe the actual terminology was it would allow you to simultaneously damage your hearing and melt the voice coils of all the drivers) but will also improve the sound. This is the reason my system at home is wired for 240 Volts.

But because the Tundra has to be hard wired for 120 Volts to operate optimally at this voltage I don't have the ability to easily switch back nor do I have a representative speaker setup at home to listen on (my ATCs have amps and crossovers built in). So I can't say how much effect the voltage is having on the comparisons but it is quite likely it is having some. If the Solos are more sensitive to having a higher voltage for best sound then this would change how they compare to the Tundra under these circumstances. I can only comment on how they compared under my circumstances which is why I try to give a full description of those circumstances.

As always the only way you will really know how any product sounds is to listen to it in your own room and own system. I realize that is not always as easy as it should be in the US (and a whole book could be written on the reasons for that), but it is still the best way.
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