Lejonklou Tundra

marmite · Post by **marmite** » 2012-03-22 07:19

Linnofil wrote:First report: The new Tundra will eat a KCT/D for breakfast and have plenty of apetite left for the rest of the day. It's just a lot better. For a third of the price for a KCT/D. (In Sweden.) Very impressive!

Are we witnessing the birth of a 'future classic' ?

Congratulations Fredrik.

Paul

matthias · Post by **matthias** » 2012-03-22 11:40

Linnofil wrote:First report: The new Tundra will eat a KCT/D for breakfast and have plenty of apetite left for the rest of the day. It's just a lot better. For a third of the price for a KCT/D. (In Sweden.) Very impressive!

Congratulations Fredrik,

what about TUNDRA vs. SOLO/D?

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2012-03-22 14:24

Setup; Almost top spec LP12, KDSmkII, KK mkII, Twin Chakra/D and 242mkIII/new bases.
Tundra is more musical than Twin. Well Done!!
Just compared with one Linn amp so not sure how good that specific Twin is. Going to test with Solos (non-D) during the weekend to get a better benchmark.

Tundra isn't powerful (rated at 24W @ 8Ohm) but has good grip in the bass, has a slightly darker character like Klout/Solo (thanks!) and sound great all the way up to full output, so the impression is that Tundra IS powerful.
The sound is not as smooth as in Klimax.

Good to know:
Tundra has a slightly lower gain than Linn amps. Tundra deliver max output at volume 78 on a KK mkII.
With Linn amps, 70 on the KK gives you same volume.

Given the price, it's a steal!
A GREAT ACHIEVEMENT Fredrik.

matthias · Post by **matthias** » 2012-03-22 17:32

Music Lover wrote: Tundra isn't powerful (rated at 24W @ 8Ohm)

So it seems to be the best to combine Tundra not with Linn speakers but with high sensitivity speakers.

Any suggestions?

matthias

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2012-03-22 18:36

matthias wrote:
Music Lover wrote: Tundra isn't powerful (rated at 24W @ 8Ohm)
So it seems to be the best to combine Tundra not with Linn speakers but with high sensitivity speakers.

Any suggestions?

No issues at all using Linn speakers!
Already 1W creates big SPL's using Linn speakers.

You know... "Power Is Nothing Without Control" - Tundra has control.

If the power is enough for you is totally depending of how loud you like to play and the room size.
I like to play seriously high and really appreciate the almost unlimited power in Solos but for me, the (more or less) only important criteria is quality.
Please give me a few days and I'm going to report how Tundra cope with Metallica on head banging levels.
To be honest, I'm more concerned about the sound. The Klimax sound is VERY smooth, detailed and natural. You can always turn down the volume but the sound is what it is.
However the musicality IS most important aspect.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2012-03-22 19:04

Thank you everyone for a great evening!

I'd like to point out that I didn't have any particular plans for last night. I brought Tundra number 001 and then we did the comparisons people asked for.

As I have made practically zero comparisons with other amplifiers during the entire development of Tundra, it was really interesting for me to listen as well. I never comment on the performance of my own products, though, so I'll leave all judgement to you.

Regarding power rating, my original intention was not to mention any numbers, because I feel they are so misleading. But it turned regulations require me to do so, and therefore a couple of numbers will be printed in the manual.

The lowest of the ratings is the RMS value for both channels driving 8 ohm speakers continuosly with less than 0.1% THD. That rating is 24 W per channel and what limits it is the power supplies limiting their output due to heat. Continuous test tone do just that: Heat things up in a way that a musical signal never does.

The other two ratings are for driving one channel at 1 kHz into 8 and 4 ohms with less than 0.1% THD. Those ratings are 40 W and 72 W per channel.

matthias · Post by **matthias** » 2012-03-22 19:38

Music Lover wrote: I like to play seriously high ...............
Please give me a few days and I'm going to report how Tundra cope with Metallica on head banging levels.

Music Lover,

as it is the same for me I appreciate your statement.

KR

matthias

matthias · Post by **matthias** » 2012-03-22 19:50

lejonklou wrote: ............what limits it is the power supplies limiting their output due to heat.

Fredrik,

the limiting factor is the power supply and not the circuit?

matthias

Post by **lejonklou** » 2012-03-22 19:59

matthias wrote:So it seems to be the best to combine Tundra not with Linn speakers but with high sensitivity speakers.

Please don't be offended, matthias, but your conclusion is exactly the reason why I wanted to avoid publishing power figures for Tundra. Why? Because then everyone would have to try in real life before they start thinking "this speaker will work and this won't".

I have tinnitus due to yesterday. We first tried Tonlägets own loudspeaker Klångedang T1 (really good!), then Linn Majik 140 and last Linn Akurate 242. On all three speakers we played loud - too loud for my ears - to see if Tundra would start clipping. It didn't. Late in the evening, however, when some guys played Kent on 242's and I couldn't stay in the room due to how loud it was, I suspect it was very close to clipping.

Music Lover wrote:Tundra deliver max output at volume 78 on a KK mkII.
With Linn amps, 70 on the KK gives you same volume.

Once again, numbers aren't that helpful. The above is only valid for when a digital source is playing a file at maximum volume. Most files are not at maximum volume. And when playing vinyl, the input signal is quite a bit lower, which means you can turn it up higher. We were over 80 in volume several times yesterday (on vinyl).

When Tundra clips, you'll notice. I'm certain you'll be able to reach that level with Metallica, Music Lover. Just take care of your ears and please don't blow up the system! Even a much less powerful amp than Tundra can kill your treble units when driven hard into clipping.

I think that if your priority is to play at "headbanging levels", Tundra is not the power amp you should get. Tundra is all about precision and quality, not about excessive quantity.

minge · Post by **minge** » 2012-03-22 20:20

lejonklou wrote:
matthias wrote:So it seems to be the best to combine Tundra not with Linn speakers but with high sensitivity speakers.
Please don't be offended, matthias, but your conclusion is exactly the reason why I wanted to avoid publishing power figures for Tundra. Why? Because then everyone would have to try in real life before they start thinking "this speaker will work and this won't".

I have tinnitus due to yesterday. We first tried Tonlägets own loudspeaker Klångedang T1 (really good!), then Linn Majik 140 and last Linn Akurate 242. On all three speakers we played loud - too loud for my ears - to see if Tundra would start clipping. It didn't. Late in the evening, however, when some guys played Kent on 242's and I couldn't stay in the room due to how loud it was, I suspect it was very close to clipping.

Music Lover wrote:Tundra deliver max output at volume 78 on a KK mkII.
With Linn amps, 70 on the KK gives you same volume.
Once again, numbers aren't that helpful. The above is only valid for when a digital source is playing a file at maximum volume. Most files are not at maximum volume. And when playing vinyl, the input signal is quite a bit lower, which means you can turn it up higher. We were over 80 in volume several times yesterday.

When Tundra clips, you'll notice. I'm certain you'll be able to reach that level with Metallica, Music Lover. Just take care of your ears and please don't blow up the system! Even a much less powerful amp than Tundra can kill your treble units when driven hard into clipping.

I think that if your priority is to play at "headbanging levels", Tundra is not the power amp you should get.

Fredrik are all Tundras of the first batch booked or is it any left?

Mike

k_numigl · Post by **k_numigl** » 2012-03-22 21:24

are all Tundras of the first batch booked or is it any left?

You cannot buy one - just look at the shop listing :). Klaus

Post by **lejonklou** » 2012-03-22 22:43

matthias wrote:the limiting factor is the power supply and not the circuit?

The output stage and the power supplies are pretty well balanced in terms of power. So it depends on what signal is being played.

When playing static test tones, the output stage and power supplies gradually heat up. After a while, the power supplies will limit their output to prevent the temperature from rising further. This gives low and unimpressive continuos power figures.

When playing dynamic, ever changing signals, like music, the temperature doesn't rise like it does with test tones. The limiting factor is more likely to be the maximum voltage output: 26 Vrms. If the loudspeaker is really low in impedance at some frequency and there's a lot of notes played in that area, it could momentarily be the power supplies limiting the power.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2012-03-22 22:58

minge wrote:Fredrik are all Tundras of the first batch booked or is it any left?

Two left. But regardless, another 40 units will arrive soon after.

tokenbrit · Post by **tokenbrit** » 2012-03-23 00:05

I've followed the thread with interest & would love to hear a Tundra... maybe next time I'm in Ann Arbor :)

I was curious about the previously mentioned idea of setting a Linn preamp to +8dB out to Tundra, in a mixed Linn/Lejonklou amped system, to maintain levels across channels... This started me wondering about whether the Tundra would play louder by using this approach, up to +15dB, but then I thought it might not be a good idea if the amplification in the preamp reduces the signal quality... I don't tend to listen to volumes much above mid 60s, let alone over 70, but wondered how boosting the signal out to the Tundra might affect sound quality, or is this really just the same as playing at 78 rather than 70, for instance? If unity gain is at 80, I guess we're just talking reduced attenuation in the preamp rather than (pre)amplification... Really what I was getting at was whether actually amplifying the signal in to the Tundra was a good idea? I set my AK/0d to max vol 80 anyway so it sounds like this wouldn't factor, & the Tundra could be a great amp for me...

I didn't mean for my post to focus on power - it was more a thought experiment than anything, prompted by previous comments and the fact that I have a large, 2-storey listening room & occasional movies that seem to require higher volumes... That said, I'm more interested in quality above the Akurate level than reported measurements & SPLs, and so love the reported results. Congratulations on realising the goal of bringing this to production. I wish you every success, but hope demand doesn't push prices up before I get an audition :)

Post by **lejonklou** » 2012-03-23 10:14

tokenbrit wrote:...This started me wondering about whether the Tundra would play louder by using this approach, up to +15dB

Hi tokenbrit and welcome here!

Setting the preamp to +8 dB on the channels that go to Tundra will make all channels play equally loud. It will not affect sound quality or how loud you can maximally play.

Thank you for the wishing wells!

ChrBea · Post by **ChrBea** » 2012-03-23 11:06

lejonklou wrote:We first tried Tonlägets own loudspeaker Klångedang T1 (really good!), then Linn Majik 140 and last Linn Akurate 242.

How were the results on the M140? I'm currently bi-amping my 140s with a C4200. Will the Tundra be a huge improvement?
I thought of going active with a second 4200, but the Tundra would give me another possibility (Klimax Twin being too expensive)

tmilligan · Post by **tmilligan** » 2012-03-23 11:39

I have re-read this thread and apologies if I missed this somewhere, but one question...

Is there or will there be an option for a version with balanced inputs?

Post by **lejonklou** » 2012-03-23 13:49

ChrBea wrote:How were the results on the M140? I'm currently bi-amping my 140s with a C4200. Will the Tundra be a huge improvement?
I thought of going active with a second 4200, but the Tundra would give me another possibility (Klimax Twin being too expensive)

I suggest you try it and tell us what you think.

Single wiring is recommended for Tundra, so make sure you have a pair of single wire links for the loudspeakers. And preferably a pair of K400 soldered with one banana per conductor in both ends.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2012-03-23 13:52

tmilligan wrote:Is there or will there be an option for a version with balanced inputs?

There is no balanced version available.

The way Tundra is designed, a balanced input would require additional circuitry and most likely perform worse.

tmilligan · Post by **tmilligan** » 2012-03-23 14:08

lejonklou wrote:
tmilligan wrote:Is there or will there be an option for a version with balanced inputs?
There is no balanced version available.

The way Tundra is designed, a balanced input would require additional circuitry and most likely perform worse.

I suspected that would be the case. That's cool... balanced cables will be disposed of :)

mrco99 · Post by **mrco99** » 2012-03-23 16:10

Hi Fredrik,

Congratulations on your Tundra landmark!
Wish I could have been present at Tonlaget, a bit too far out I´m afraid.
I still hope you´re planning on a visit to Amsterdam, the shop I recommended has meanwhile also become a Linn dealer.

I must say I´m very curious and intrigued how Tundra will sound, and if a comparable passive setup will eventually floor my 6100/Keltiks.

Vänliga hälsningar och lycka till,

Marco

tokenbrit · Post by **tokenbrit** » 2012-03-23 18:14

lejonklou wrote:Single wiring is recommended for Tundra...

Interesting. Do Tundra amps have line out for daisy-chain bi-amping, or are they intended to be used 'more strictly' stereo, single wired?

Post by **lejonklou** » 2012-03-23 22:42

mrco99 wrote:I still hope you´re planning on a visit to Amsterdam

Thank you Marco!

Yes, I will visit Amsterdam. But right now I can't say when. I will get back to you!

tokenbrit wrote:Do Tundra amps have line out for daisy-chain bi-amping, or are they intended to be used 'more strictly' stereo, single wired?

Tundra has a line level Input and Output for both channels, so you can let the signal continue to another power amp. Or go from Out on channel 1 to In on channel 2, to make both channels play the same signal.

hcl · Post by **hcl** » 2012-03-24 09:13

Is it possible to bridge the Tundra? Given your power ratings It would yield a max output of 140W into 8 ohm, but probably not much continuously into 4 ohm though.

BTW; I do not think we where that close to clipping when playing Kent. I think the rough sound can be written on the ludness mastering account. It was not at all unpleasant though and the Tundra gave an impressive grip on the tune.

I would like to listen to the amp with more songs before making any final comments on the Tundra performance, but it might be that Lejonklou have came up with a power amp with a performance on an entierly new level. A classic - no doubt, good value - no doubt, how good - we will come back to that later...

paolo · Post by **paolo** » 2012-03-24 19:25

Many congratulations for your Thundra introduction Fredrik!!!
Cannot wait the moment to have you in Italy and listen to it. The response from these first day seems simply fantastic.

Good luck and keep up with your great work!
Paolo