Lejonklou Tundra

tmilligan · Post by **tmilligan** » 2012-06-13 09:26

Yep, I do like the open development.

I think I'll be holding on to mine in the 'old' spec for a bit - I really can't be without it for now!

anthony · Post by **anthony** » 2012-06-13 09:40

tmilligan wrote:Yep, I do like the open development.

I think I'll be holding on to mine in the 'old' spec for a bit - I really can't be without it for now!

Your dealer can do it while you wait, I have the update for mine.

Then you can enjoy the improvement with minimal loss!

tmilligan · Post by **tmilligan** » 2012-06-13 09:44

anthony wrote:
tmilligan wrote:Yep, I do like the open development.

I think I'll be holding on to mine in the 'old' spec for a bit - I really can't be without it for now!
Your dealer can do it while you wait, I have the update for mine.

Then you can enjoy the improvement with minimal loss!

Ah... I am in London but I bought it direct from Fredrik as I don't have a dealer that I can get to particularly easily.

Erik · Post by **Erik** » 2012-06-13 12:36

I have only listened to my updated Tundra for less then an hour but it's absolutely worth taking it to 1.1.

Erik

Rufus McDufus · Post by **Rufus McDufus** » 2012-06-13 13:42

Oooh decisions decisions! I might hold off for v1.2 but if it's a significant improvement I'm very tempted...

[edit] I'm extremely happy with v1.0 by the way!

tmilligan · Post by **tmilligan** » 2012-06-13 13:44

Rufus McDufus wrote:Oooh decisions decisions! I might hold off for v1.2 but if it's a significant improvement I'm very tempted...

[edit] I'm extremely happy with v1.0 by the way!

Yep, agree with both of the above. I think I'll need to spend a week away on holiday somewhere very nice before I am able to let mine out of my sight or rather earshot!

Post by **lejonklou** » 2012-06-13 19:07

I consider the upgrade to be minor, not major.

But it's always difficult to quantify quality improvements. If the system sounds great and one is very familiar with its qualities, it's perfectly possible to perceive the 1.1 upgrade as important.

Erik · Post by **Erik** » 2012-06-14 06:16

Agree, but still worthwhile!

Erik

Per A · Post by **Per A** » 2012-06-14 20:07

I hope to hear the Tundra tomorrow in Gothenburg.

Linncredible · Post by **Linncredible** » 2012-06-15 18:33

So now I’ve had my Tundra for a week. I've had a really intense week at work but have still had some opportunities to listen and here’s my initial report.

To begin with, my system consists of ADS/0/D, Kikkin 2.2, C6100/D with two sets of chakra cards running Ninka on polymer stands aktiv. All on Quadraspire Q4, with Linn Silvers IC:s and K400 with Knekt connectors soldered by Fredrik Lejonklou. Since me and my wife have recently moved to a new apartment I am currently running the setup without having had the equipment (incl. the speakers) properly positioned and tuned in an optimum way.

So what happened when I went from aktiv to passiv, from C6100 to Tundra?

Well, to sum it up:

* With Tundra the music is just so much more involving. I just long to listen to more music and continue to listen for long sessions when I’ve once started. Much harder to sit still and not to move to the pace and rhythm of the music. The more I listen the more I understand just how good it actually is. Also, soundwise more of an analogue feel.

* One of my “fears” before the swap from C6100 to Tundra concerned going from an aktiv to a passiv system. I guess my fear concerned less “power/punch” than what you get from an aktiv system. However this turned out to be absolutely no problem at all. I really don’t miss anything att all from the previous setup. Passiv from a power amplifier on this quality level just rules!

So thank you Fredrik for a truly fantastic product! Can’t wait to upgrade to version 1.1…

tokenbrit · Post by **tokenbrit** » 2012-06-15 20:17

ThomasOK wrote:... The reason Fredrik, anthony and others are moving away from bi-wiring to single wiring is that they have found that single wiring is more coherent and focused - the results just seem to be more musical. Bi-wiring appears to give a bigger, more "detailed" and more H-Fi sound but at the expense of a less tuneful and musical performance. In theory this would seem to have to do with the electrical signal following separate paths and the differences this could cause between the two signals that arrive at the speaker terminals.

This same thinking can be applied to passive bi-amping where you are also dealing with the possibility of slight differences in the amp channels.

With huge thanks to Thomas, I have a Tundra on demo for the weekend, racked & ready to go, but thought I should try my speakers single wired & single amped, rather than my usual bi-amped arrangement, to make it a straight comparison between 4200/D & Tundra. As part of the experiment I've played with separate channels on the Linn amp, and with wiring to upper or lower speaker posts. (I don't have an easy way to try bi-wiring with just 2 channels)

Oh dear - I thought bi-amping would be better. There are differences between individual channels and between upper & lower terminals on the speakers, but these are insignificant compared with how engaging the music is simply single wired & single amped. I tried going back to bi-amped just to double check, but the involvement isn't there. Sure there's less weight to the music only using 2 channels - the music is not as 'big' - but the timing, the interplay between the musicians, the meaning of the music all make more sense single wired - it's just more fun... And that's before I've even listened to the Tundra (more to follow)

Ozzzy189 · Post by **Ozzzy189** » 2012-06-15 21:38

Cheers linncredible, you have allayed my fears!

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2012-06-15 22:09

tokenbrit wrote:Oh dear - I thought bi-amping would be better. There are differences between individual channels and between upper & lower terminals on the speakers, but these are insignificant compared with how engaging the music is simply single wired & single amped. I tried going back to bi-amped just to double check, but the involvement isn't there. Sure there's less weight to the music only using 2 channels - the music is not as 'big' - but the timing, the interplay between the musicians, the meaning of the music all make more sense single wired - it's just more fun... And that's before I've even listened to the Tundra (more to follow)

Also run just two channels of my 4200. Feel the same as you about it. Look forward to reading what you think of Tundra.

Linncredible wrote:So thank you Fredrik for a truly fantastic product! Can’t wait to upgrade to version 1.1…

Good write up Linncredible.

longmanjon · Post by **longmanjon** » 2012-06-16 07:04

i am also a little more interested by linncredible's feedback, as i have a 6100 aktive but with Linn espeks, so i am very interested in the power that it could possess as the espek requires a bit more. also the change from active to passive is a big step which i need to understand.

Is there any possibility of a preamp with a couple of digital inputs plus an analogue, as i would like to replace a av5103, my other choice is to change my akurate DS for a DSM model of some sort.

just waiting for hidden systems to tell me how much and delivery time on a tundra.

anthony · Post by **anthony** » 2012-06-16 08:25

longmanjon wrote:i am also a little more interested by linncredible's feedback, as i have a 6100 aktive but with Linn espeks, so i am very interested in the power that it could possess as the espek requires a bit more. also the change from active to passive is a big step which i need to understand.

Is there any possibility of a preamp with a couple of digital inputs plus an analogue, as i would like to replace a av5103, my other choice is to change my akurate DS for a DSM model of some sort.

just waiting for hidden systems to tell me how much and delivery time on a tundra.

Which version Akurate ds? An Akurate Kontrol/0, would give you digital/analogue and be a nice upgrade on a 5103.

The Tundra is 2800GBP and Chris should have one fairly quickly.

A KDSM would be biggest improvement.

HIDDENSYSTEMS · Post by **HIDDENSYSTEMS** » 2012-06-16 18:12

longmanjon wrote:i am also a little more interested by linncredible's feedback, as i have a 6100 aktive but with Linn espeks, so i am very interested in the power that it could possess as the espek requires a bit more. also the change from active to passive is a big step which i need to understand.

Is there any possibility of a preamp with a couple of digital inputs plus an analogue, as i would like to replace a av5103, my other choice is to change my akurate DS for a DSM model of some sort.

just waiting for hidden systems to tell me how much and delivery time on a tundra.

Hi longmanjon,
I replied to your work email friday assuming you are jonathan from Basingstoke way? They are £2800 and readily available to order from us. Like Oppo BluRay players, I tend to keep stock and plan to with Tundra - just doing the v1.1 upgrade this afternoon along with old LINN Classik repairs for fun.

I agree with Anthony on reviewing the PreAmp/Processor. Do you use the AV5103 two channel or 5.1 when you mention digital inputs? If two channel then new ADSM or KDSM fits all for two channel approach, if you want surround then add a "processor only" and use good amps on the back, Onkyo 5509 or Anthem DV2 seem like Akurate and Klimax level respectively with dts Hd everything noise.

For used kit, AK/0 Dyn or Exotik DA Dyn are both excellent and are both massively better than 5103 in my opinion. My email reply centred on powers amps,

As you are local - give me a call and I'll pop over to do a home demo with Tundra, xDSM, Majik 140s and/or 242s.

Cheers
Chris Fuller - HiddenSystems 01252 845400

tmilligan · Post by **tmilligan** » 2012-06-16 18:18

longmanjon wrote: also the change from active to passive is a big step which i need to understand.

Don't be scared... do it!!

longmanjon · Post by **longmanjon** » 2012-06-16 18:38

Hi Chris,

yes im the same one that emailed you from work. i use the 5103 only as 2 channel to feed my sky box plus video streamer and of course my linn system.
i have been interested in a DSM but cannot afford currently to go upwards, i only have the AK/0 with 6100 active with espeks. what about a MDSM or would that be a backward step?
i do live in basingstoke, so its not too far.

a demo would be great. very temtped currently, as i think the 6100 is a bit on the thin side.

hcl · Post by **hcl** » 2012-06-16 18:59

longmanjon wrote:Hi Chris,

yes im the same one that emailed you from work. i use the 5103 only as 2 channel to feed my sky box plus video streamer and of course my linn system.
i have been interested in a DSM but cannot afford currently to go upwards, i only have the AK/0 with 6100 active with espeks. what about a MDSM or would that be a backward step?
i do live in basingstoke, so its not too far.

a demo would be great. very temtped currently, as i think the 6100 is a bit on the thin side.

I would stick to source upgrades til the leaves fell of if I where you. Upgrading power amps before source and pre is just a waste of money in my opinion. Get at least a KDS/1 and AK/1 before thinking of doing anything at the other end.

I have not done this demo myself, but a freind of mine attended a shootout between a Kinos and a AK/1 and they seem to be quite close. No need to switch from any pf them to the other anyway. If I get the time I will try to do the comparison myself.

rowlandhills · Post by **rowlandhills** » 2012-06-16 21:58

Not sure I'd feel the need to go as far as a KDS before upgrading the power amps, but if you were me I'd wait a few months until ex-demo ADSMs start to appear, then sell off your ADS/0 and your AV5103 and move to an ADSM. Should be a big improvement.

Per A · Post by **Per A** » 2012-06-18 18:49

I finally got to hear the Tundra on Friday and I understand all that has been said in favour of it.

The demo was with Klimax DS & Kontrol, speakers were Majik 140. I spent one half hour in the shop where the kind Anders shifted back and forth between the Tundra and an Akurate.

It brought out details and great sound. The sound image got larger than with the Akurate amp. I found that it was easier to follow what musicians were playing. The Linn sounded a bit harsh after the Tundra. My dear wife was positive that the Tundra was a lot better.

I also think they will like my ATC SCM 20SL but will have to make sure at my home. Which by the way sound fantastic as it is with an old 2250.

tokenbrit · Post by **tokenbrit** » 2012-06-18 19:29

Tundra - clearly better than my 4200 which has had the benefit of Thomas' tuning tweaks. As Per A said, the Tundra just brings out details and great sound, with apparent ease... so much more going on, and all in tune, time, & control. I don't want to give the Tundra back.

Now to the down side, and it's not a criticism of the Tundra - it has the clarity & the quality to show up weaknesses in the rest of my system. My speakers are smaller floor-standers, and they have a large room to fill: approx 17' x 20' / ~5m x 6m, with a 2-storey, 17' / 5m ceiling. The clean (not lean) presentation of the Tundra makes it clearer that I could do with bigger speakers (similar to ML's comments in the 'Me and My System' thread)

Don't get me wrong: the Tundra drives the Spendors very well, but the effortlessness of the amp isn't quite matched in the projection from the speakers in relation to my room size...

In comparison, the A4200 is a bit heavy handed - you don't get as much insight into the music with the Akurate amp as you do with the Tundra. The Linn amp sounds warmer, which makes it sound bigger, but at the expense of some musical detail & dynamics.

All I have to do now is find budget for Tundra(s) & bigger speakers.

Addendum: I haven't tried any speaker repositioning with Tundra compared against 4200. Some optimisation could be achievable but, for the purpose of the home demo, I wanted to change as little as possible, and I've been too busy listening...

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2012-06-23 22:15

Time for a little (hah!) update on the Tundra amplifier. Since my previous report there have been a few changes. First, the Tundra made a little voyage to Tokenbrit and has logged in a fair number more hours. Second, when it came back it was updated to V1.1 with the new ferrites and it was found they do make a noticeable performance improvement. Third, we received a set of Solos back from having Dynamik upgrades installed by Linn. These updated Solos have been running in the store for a couple of weeks now and are fully broken in. I am going to try to keep this shorter than usual by only referring briefly to intermediate steps and getting to the final results.

The system used for these comparisons of the Tundra and Solo/Ds consisted of ADS/1, KK/1/D and latest version 242s (what I call Mk3s) with the most recent cabinets and bases. Wiring was all Linn Silvers and speaker cables were long K20 that we have installed in the floor. All electronics on Quadraspire Q4 racks. For the final test the Tundra and the Solo/Ds were all connected with new stock Linn Longwell AC cables with the proper directionality to eliminate the power cables as a source of musical differences (see Power cable thread for more info - I do find this the most musical power cable on Linn components and the Tundra). Earlier tests, which will be commented on as well, were made with the Lejonklou supplied Tongyuan (a very good cable) on the Tundra and Linn Ta Hsing cables on the Solo/Ds as a test of how the amps perform factory stock. The Longwells have only had a day of burn in but do sound quite good out of the box. They were all plugged in at the same time and have the same amount of burn in.

An interesting surprise or two came from using the 242s as opposed to the Vienna Kiss speakers I used earlier. While the 242s appear to be less efficient needing a bit more volume to play as loud as the Viennas, they also appear to be a less difficult load as they didn't cause the fans to come on the Solos and they could be driven at higher volume settings without clipping on the Tundra (which takes an unreasonable amount of volume level to clip for a supposedly 24 watt amp!). Indeed I was able to play some rock pieces on the Tundra at a level of 86 on the KK/1 without clipping and the hardest pieces of music needed about 80 to clip slightly on really potent bass notes. Overall, the few who listened to it all said I was playing louder than they ever would into 242s without clipping and only I could find myself possibly wanting to play loud enough to even consider a second amp (and I do have a bit of a reputation for playing loud). This was in our larger listening room of 17 x 22 x 8 feet with acoustic tile ceiling. So I have to agree that for most people a single Tundra will certainly be sufficient to drive 242s in typical rooms. In a really large room or for volume freaks (like me) a second Tundra might be worthwhile.

So on to the listening tests. With a range of different music what I found was that the Tundra and SoloDs are truly "neck and neck". They were so close musically in this system that those who listened all had to go back and forth several times to determine what the differences were and to decide their preferences. They really are that close. One listener who is quite succinct listened to the SoloDs and Tundra and when asked if he wanted me to switch back said "I assume we were just listening to the Lejonklou amp and the Solos?" When I said yes he said "Listening's over. You'd have to be crazy to spend the extra $20,000 for the other amps!" As previously there were some things that seemed a touch clearer on the Solos and music seemed to have better flow and "boogie" on the Tundra but now the differences were much smaller with the updates to both amps and the improved power cables on them. On one track a couple of us listened to a lot when we switched from the Tundra to the Solos it sounded a bit more detailed and a touch louder, then when we went back to the Tundra it now sounded more detailed and a touch louder. We found that the track, "Fat Man in the Bathtub" by Little Feat, started out sparse and loud then filled up and mellowed a touch by the time we switched over. There was some fairly slight tendency for the Solos to separate the strands of the individual notes letting you hear them in a very revealing way yet the Tundra was also extremely detailed and the notes and the flow of them had a very natural feeling to it. On all songs we found the Tundra got you into the music a bit more in that when it was funky the Tundra made it more funky, when it boogied, it boogied more on the Tundra and when it caressed you, as on the beautiful "Calypso" by Suzanne Vega off "Solitude Standing" (a truly excellent album), you were more thoroughly caressed! A second person put on a really funky solo bass piece as he thought the needed power would give the advantage to the Solos. While we both felt that the Solos did seem to pressurize the room a little better (and I do mean just a little) with more noticeable feel of some bass notes hitting your chest at high volumes, still we both felt that the bass was funkier and had more natural texture on the Tundra. In this person's words: "Even if I did win the lottery there is no way I would spend the extra $20,000 for the Solos." I used probably the most potent bass test I know of (it has the ability to bottom out the woofers in original Aktiv Isobariks and is probably what blew up one of the woofers in my ATC 100s!) as a kind of ultimate test. It is "Moun Badinina" from the excellent self-titled Mino Cinelu album. This is the only track I played that really showed that the Solos have more grunt than the Tundra. On the most potent low bass notes I could get the Tundra to clip a touch at 80 on the KK/1/D with bad clipping 1dB above this and almost completely clean sound 1dB below it. With the Solos I could go several dB higher in equivalent volume levels with no signs of distress on the most powerful bass notes (the Solos needed 8dB lower settings on the KK/1/D for the same measured volume level in the room). However, the volume level just below clipping was loud enough another listener said they would never play that loud anyway. Even at this level just below clipping on the Tundra there was a touch more musical texture and flow compared to the Solos.

One of the listeners also mentioned that they found the Tundra to have a bigger soundstage. This is something I don't normally even bother listening for especially when I'm doing comparisons as I consider it an interesting artifact but not a musically important one. Still, if everything else is right I do enjoy some of the imaging games some artists like Roger Waters and Simple Minds have been known to play on their albums. So I threw on a few of those type of tracks and I can report that the Tundra does have very wide and specific imaging and even room filling "ambience" on the albums that have those type of phase games going on.

In listening with the Lejonklou power cable on the Tundra and Ta Hsings on the SoloDs the findings were similar but with a bit more noticeable "detailed" quality on the Solos and a more noticeable flow improvement on the Tundra. I felt that the Longwell AC cable brought the best out of both amps improving the performance of both but also reducing the differences between them somewhat. In other words, I think some of the musical differences between the amps with their own power cables comes from the AC cables themselves.

In summation, I am not going to categorically state that either the SoloD or the Tundra is the superior amplifier. They are so close that most would have a hard time choosing between them. While there are musical differences they are small and even smaller when the same AC cables are used. Certainly there will be some who prefer one and others who will prefer the other. Personally I would go for the Tundra even if it were the same money involved (although depending on the speaker I might go with two) as I find it the more musically engaging of the two. When the Tundra is playing I just want to listen to the music without stopping. Yesterday while I was just doing some general listening to the setup with the Tundra a somewhat loud Nirvana piece from "Nevermind" came on. Now I do like Nirvana (and you know I like loud) but I also have to be in the mood for it. When the song came on I thought: "I'm really not in the mood for this tune". However, I found myself at the end of the song with my finger poised above the skip forward button that I had never quite managed to push. I had gotten so engaged with the piece that I had just sat there for 4+ minutes with my finger hovering over the button but unable to push it. Such is the power of the Tundra to get me involved in the music. You've already heard the comments of a couple of others, there's really noting more to add. The Tundra is an exceptional amp, in 1.1 version it is even better. It is fully musically competitive with anything I have experienced and capable of driving most speakers to higher levels than most people want to listen. Amazing work, Fredrik!

Ozzzy189 · Post by **Ozzzy189** » 2012-06-24 07:23

Wow!
Thanks for such an informative post Thomas. A brilliant read, and what a fantastic product Fredrik appears to have created. I must hear one!

matthias · Post by **matthias** » 2012-06-24 07:50

Ozzzy189 wrote:Wow!
Thanks for such an informative post Thomas. A brilliant read, and what a fantastic product Fredrik appears to have created. I must hear one!

+1

KR
matthias