Sagatun and Sagatun Mono

[Sopper]

Nice to hear you’ve hit on a worthy “upgrade”.

On a side-note to consider (or not): not everyone likes the half size boxes. At least I don’t…

[lejonklou]

Another gift for our system? Well they have been good and, hopefully, will be even 'gooder' next year :)

The "tighter" & "cleaner" descriptions of the new firmware have me curious how this will sound with 3677s: hopefully a good match - is there a risk of cleaner & leaner?

Thanks, and happy holidays to you & yours, Fredrik.

I don't hear anything leaner, the tonal balance is the same. I find the new firmware to be less less muddy and more melodic.

Perhaps Thomas has some input on this? I sent him the new firmware without comments and asked him to try it.

Nice to hear you’ve hit on a worthy “upgrade”.

On a side-note to consider (or not): not everyone likes the half size boxes. At least I don’t…

Interesting! Is it that you don't like the esthetics of two SINGularity sized cases next to one another, or is it that you have found a stacked arrangement that might be difficult to copy with two smaller cases?

[tokenbrit]

I don't hear anything leaner, the tonal balance is the same. I find the new firmware to be less less muddy and more melodic.

Perhaps Thomas has some input on this?

I've never thought of the Monos as muddy, so that sounds intriguing, and more melodic sounds enticing.

All makes me curious to read Thomas' thoughts, and to hear the upgrade to 1.8

Skål. Cheers.

[Sopper]

Nice to hear you’ve hit on a worthy “upgrade”.

On a side-note to consider (or not): not everyone likes the half size boxes. At least I don’t…

Interesting! Is it that you don't like the esthetics of two SINGularity sized cases next to one another, or is it that you have found a stacked arrangement that might be difficult to copy with two smaller cases?

Both 😁

[matthias]

I'm not satisfied with keeping the original dimensions, however, when I know that the electronics could fit in a smaller case. And when I picture both channels on one shelf, side by side, it just looks so neat!

An additional advantage of this smaller cases sitting on ONE shelf is that both Monos get the same hierarchy in a rack.
This might be difficult to achieve with TWO shelves.

[Hermann]

Unless a rack system is used that has no hierarchy. In this case, shelf levels that are stacked are less advantageous. The Mana system offers exactly this possibility with the levels under the racks. There is no hierarchy at rack level.

By the way, I like the dimensions of the Sagatun and Tundra.

Merry Christmas and a healthy New Year to all

[ThomasOK]

I don't hear anything leaner, the tonal balance is the same. I find the new firmware to be less less muddy and more melodic.

Perhaps Thomas has some input on this?

I've never thought of the Monos as muddy, so that sounds intriguing, and more melodic sounds enticing.

All makes me curious to read Thomas' thoughts, and to hear the upgrade to 1.8

Skål. Cheers.

I have already upgraded 3 sets of Monos and one stereo. I agree with the less muddy and more melodic comment. On the first pair I did, which Fredrik requested as a triple check that the new firmware works well on my computer as well as his, I did one first and compared it to the other in mono with a mono Frank Sinatra record. My customer and I listened to the comparison and felt that Frank and the musicians just sounded more there, more real and more nuanced with the new firmware. Units were both warmed up and swapped between two shelves so the unit being listened to was on the same shelf. You do just hear more music presented more naturally.

The customer who had both a pair of Monos and a stereo upgraded said that both sounded much better than he was expecting. A couple of days later he asked if the new firmware had lowered the noise floor yet again (as the 1.7 upgrades had done) as he can now hear more music. My reply was that it certainly sounds that way to me. My other customer is similarly pleased with the additional music he hears at home after the upgrade.

Actually hearing the Sagatun Mono 1.8 in my system was the last straw for me. I had sold my personal SMs in hopes of a new SM coming soon. I then started using the Superkikkin, which is quite good. However, I had a new pair of SM 1.4s in stock in case someone needed them to go with a pair of TM3s. (I would, of course, have upgraded them first.) Once Fredrik told me what he has told all of you about SM2 timing, and I then heard 1.8 in my system, there was no going back and I fully upgraded the SMs and now have the 1.8s in my system. There is no question that every piece music I hear, streamed or vinyl, is more musical and more engaging than I have heard it before. (Hence why SMs are out of stock everywhere.) I expect I will be doing more Sagatun upgrades soon!

As to SM2s, I have been hoping (Fredrik might even say prodding) for a SINGularity size box for some time. It really has nothing to do with the styling, which I like either way. It has more to do with practicality. Using the Harmoni rack system I do (where there is a small but audible difference in different levels) trying to handle all the wiring with Mono phono stages, preamps and power amps, with a Källa and Kremlin, is a bit of a hassle. (I know nobody is likely to feel too sorry for me! First world problems indeed!) At one point I had a Sagatun Mono on the second to top shelf of two different racks and the Tundra Monos on the third from top. Once the Källa was introduced and a third rack was needed this wiring just became too difficult. Getting the sources to reach the SMs the link cable to reach between the SMs and the SMs to reach the TMs just didn't want to work with my best interconnects. So I gave up and put the SMs one above the other on the 2nd and 3rd shelves and the same with the Monos on a different rack. This allows the SINGularities, Källa and Kremlin to all reach the SMs easily and the SMs to just reach the TMs.

All of that is a long winded way of saying that having two half-size SMs would make things much simpler by having them both on the same shelf allowing them to sound the same, reach everything better and possibly reduce the number of racks needed. The extra amount of space taken and extra wiring complexity has been a frustration for some of my dealers and customers. (I have a customer and a dealer using a Superkikkin or a Sagatun stereo with TMs just for that reason.) The added convenience of side by side boxes is likely to make this a more palatable purchase for customers and dealers. So I am all for it, as long as there is no musical degradation. The musical quality must always come first (as it always does with Fredrik).

[tokenbrit]

.. the musicians just sounded more there, more real and more nuanced with the new firmware... You do just hear more music presented more naturally... every piece music I hear, streamed or vinyl, is more musical and more engaging than I have heard it before.

Guess I'll be giving you a call in Jan, then, to discuss ;) Happy New Year :)

[Tony Tune-age]

As to SM2s, I have been hoping (Fredrik might even say prodding) for a SINGularity size box for some time. It really has nothing to do with the styling, which I like either way. It has more to do with practicality. Using the Harmoni rack system I do (where there is a small but audible difference in different levels) trying to handle all the wiring with Mono phono stages, preamps and power amps, with a Källa and Kremlin, is a bit of a hassle. (I know nobody is likely to feel too sorry for me! First world problems indeed!) At one point I had a Sagatun Mono on the second to top shelf of two different racks and the Tundra Monos on the third from top. Once the Källa was introduced and a third rack was needed this wiring just became too difficult. Getting the sources to reach the SMs the link cable to reach between the SMs and the SMs to reach the TMs just didn't want to work with my best interconnects. So I gave up and put the SMs one above the other on the 2nd and 3rd shelves and the same with the Monos on a different rack. This allows the SINGularities, Källa and Kremlin to all reach the SMs easily and the SMs to just reach the TMs.

All of that is a long winded way of saying that having two half-size SMs would make things much simpler by having them both on the same shelf allowing them to sound the same, reach everything better and possibly reduce the number of racks needed. The extra amount of space taken and extra wiring complexity has been a frustration for some of my dealers and customers. (I have a customer and a dealer using a Superkikkin or a Sagatun stereo with TMs just for that reason.) The added convenience of side by side boxes is likely to make this a more palatable purchase for customers and dealers. So I am all for it, as long as there is no musical degradation. The musical quality must always come first (as it always does with Fredrik).

For what it' worth, that would be very helpful for me. I really don't want to purchase multiple audio racks for my frontend components, especially if I upgrade my current audio rack. So here's to your prodding Thomas! By the way, my Sagatun is on it's way to the new 1.8 upgrade!

Cheers, and Happy New Year's to everyone...

[David Neel]

Agreed that two SMs on one shelf would really help!

[tokenbrit]

And then we'll need TMs to match ;) Otherwise, since the Sagatun (& Tundra) Stereo already fit on one shelf, all you have to do is make the one box Stereo sound as good as the Monos, so a half-size case isn't needed :)

[David Neel]

And then we'll need TMs to match ;) Otherwise, since the Sagatun (& Tundra) Stereo already fit on one shelf, all you have to do is make the one box Stereo sound as good as the Monos, so a half-size case isn't needed :)

What we really need is a Boazu which outperforms four Monos... how hard could that be? :)

[tokenbrit]

And then we'll need TMs to match ;) Otherwise, since the Sagatun (& Tundra) Stereo already fit on one shelf, all you have to do is make the one box Stereo sound as good as the Monos, so a half-size case isn't needed :)

What we really need is a Boazu which outperforms four Monos... how hard could that be? :)

Exactly. One box to rule them all... A reign-deer :D

[ThomasOK]

And then we'll need TMs to match ;) Otherwise, since the Sagatun (& Tundra) Stereo already fit on one shelf, all you have to do is make the one box Stereo sound as good as the Monos, so a half-size case isn't needed :)

What we really need is a Boazu which outperforms four Monos... how hard could that be? :)

Exactly. One box to rule them all... A reign-deer :D

Nice try, but no half size Tundra Monos - they need the breathing room for cooling to optimize performance. A Boazu that outperforms four Monos?! You really shouldn't still be hung over from New Years Eve! However, Mono Boazus with the best parts might be interesting.

[Spannko]

Mono Boazus with the best parts might be interesting.

Do you envisage mono Boazu’s as being a one box amplifier with four power supplies?

[lejonklou]

Love your ideas!

Half size Mono power amps might be possible with fans inside. But even if they were very quiet, I suspect fans could cause trouble in the long run.

It seems difficult to make an integrated that can match separates. I think separating pre and power is more beneficial than separating left and right channels.

Four power supplies is likely not possible due to regulations.

We did toss with the idea of two Mono Källa. Two half sized ones would be cool. Unfortunately the musical performance decreases instead of increasing. The process that keeps them in sync interferes with the smooth running music rendering process. And that part is more crucial than any potential Mono benefits.

[Spannko]

Very interesting! So, pre + power amp has clear technical and musical advantages. What about a dual mono pre in one box and a dual mono power amp in another box?

[lejonklou]

Yes, separating the steering from the propulsion, so to speak, is advantageous.

Sagatun and Tundra Stereo were two one box dual mono pre and power amps, apart from that their two power supplies were split into one positive and one negative rail instead of left and right. So dual mono with dual shared power supplies.

Making those two designs ”more Mono” would require four power supplies, which as mentioned I don’t think is possible.

There is also the shared chassis ground when using one box for two channels. The signal grounds are decoupled to the chassis, so they have a degree of connection. When using two separate boxes, their connection point is moved further away to where the power cords meet in the power strip. There is some advantage to this arrangement.

Years ago I thought about using two power cords for one box - didn’t Linn Spark, an external power supply for the LK280 power amp, have that? When asking the authorities about such an arrangement they had absolutely no idea whether it was legal or not. It wasn’t mentioned anywhere, they said. The chassis ground would have been a key question. If both power cords carried chassis ground it would have created a loop, which is usually a bad idea. And if only one of them was connected to the chassis, they would likely have performed a little different, apart from it also seeming unclear from the electrical safety aspect. So I dropped the idea.

[ThomasOK]

Yes, the SPARK has two power cords coming in and two umbilical cables that feed the LK280s (a special version without its own internal transformer). I would be really surprised if they would meet any current electrical safety standards. However, two pair are working just fine driving the front and rear Isobariks in my basement home theater system. I have no idea how they deal with the grounding on them. Each channel of the SPARK has it's own torroidal transformer, caps and diodes and uses a three prong umbilical to the amp. The amps have two separate channels on the left and right side of the chassis. If they use floating ground maybe the chassis ground doesn't matter all that much? Here's a little video about them. I see ground wires from the two transformers attached to the chassis.

https://youtu.be/OFywspR42hs

[Spannko]

Sagatun and Tundra Stereo were two one box dual mono pre and power amps, apart from that their two power supplies were split into one positive and one negative rail instead of left and right. So dual mono with dual shared power supplies.

Thanks Fredrik, I didn’t know that the power supplies were arranged in this way. Are the two power supplies in a Boazu arranged like this too? That is, one for the +’ve rail and one for the -‘ve rail, rather than one for the pre-amp section and one for the power amp section.

[Spannko]

Re: LK280 + Spark grounding. I think the Spark chassis is grounded via its mains leads, whereas the LK280 chassis is grounded via the pre-amplifier using an additional ground wire between the LK280 and pre-amplifier.

[lejonklou]

Are the two power supplies in a Boazu arranged like this too? That is, one for the +’ve rail and one for the -‘ve rail, rather than one for the pre-amp section and one for the power amp section.

Yes, the arrangement is the same on Boazu.

[Tony Tune-age]

it's been a few days since getting my Sagatun Stereo Preamplifier upgraded from 1.7 to the 1.8 version. And needless to say, it sounds even better now. I really appreciate being able to upgrade a good component, instead of having to sell an existing component and then having to buy a new component.

Thanks to Fredrik, and thanks to Thomas for doing the upgrade!

[willem kuis]

Wow!

The 1.8 is indeed a heartwarming upgrade!

I have been playing my Sagatun Stereo 1.8 now for approx 2 days, and I can confirm that it is -as Fredrik mentioned- tighter, better structured and cleaner sounding.
I was wondering what those qualities would mean for me. Well, the result of tighter, better structured and cleaner sounding is that the emotional impact of the music has become heartwarmingly better. As if there’s hardly something in between the performer’s intentions and the listener’s heart: Very transparent and natural combined with an overwhelming intimacy.

Thank you Fredrik for your commitment to make these thrilling components and upgrades!

[RockBottom]

Threshold crossed

I was extremely happy with my LK setup when i got the offer to upgrade the SMs to 1.8.

Fredrik upgraded my SMs to 1.8 within one day, many thanks for that fast execution. I received them back a week later, after UPS lost one of the SMs and put me in a little frenzy;-(

I now want to wax lyrical about the new heights of fidelity with a new 1.8 upgrade.

But my ears are not that good anymore and a cold closed my ears, so i forgot a little bit about the upgrade.

This was until i listened to the Gulda Mozart Tapes again.

https://open.spotify.com/intl-de/album/ ... Y-HIzrRbEQ

They are of course a great recording, but slightly flawed because it was a compact cassette copy.

Friedrich Gulda recorded these in private at a hotel nearby the Austrian Attersee in the early 80s.

I know these recordings of the Mozart Sonata for nearly 20 years now, always respected them, never really get into it, because of the dry and slightly harsh fidelity.

Upon re-listening to them with a 1.8 upgrade, i discovered them like new. This Saturday, with the family off, I listen to them for more than three hours.

To me, despite the slightly flawed recording quality, they are the most important body of Mozart Sonatas in existence.

He never intended to realese them. Now it is (i quote) a litte bit like reading a (his) personal diary.

I experience Guldas greatness, his rhythmic precision and his absolute absence of any mannerisms, like never before.

Gulda called Mozart the World Champion, now i know why.