Sagatun and Sagatun Mono

[Hermann]

have also upgraded sagatun to 1.7. It's crazy what an upgrade. Such nerve and presence in the music. A worthy upgrade to källa. I'm still taken by how god the källa is. With sagatun 1.7 it’s amazing.

Congratulations pär.

Crazy in the sense of leaving the established path and doing it better. Even after this rather long time in which the upgrade has been installed, we are amazed at what can be discovered in well-known music recordings.

[pär]

Congratulations pär.

Crazy in the sense of leaving the established path and doing it better. Even after this rather long time in which the upgrade has been installed, we are amazed at what can be discovered in well-known music recordings.

I know what you mean Herman. I was late to work this morning so many new music recordings to listen to.

[Sopper]

I had a problem with the Sagatun mono preamps
Several times a week they lost synchronization on the volume and I had to reset them to solve this.
1.4 upgrade should be more stable, but the problem never went away, although it happened less then before.
1.7 didn’t solve it either

But now I have finally solved it myself
Running 4 weeks daily and never experienced a synchronization problem anymore.

The solution was buying a new optical cable with a different build then the normal standard (and supplied) optical cable.

Quote: “The optical cable Pangea Audio First SE uses a multi-core plastic optical fiber.
A feature that allows it to overcome the limitations caused by the dispersion phenomenon that occurs regularly in single core optical cable.”

Just wanted to share this with Lejonklou owners 😃

[lejonklou]

Thank you for the tip of a better Toslink cable, Sopper!

I’m sorry to hear you’ve had problems with the volume synch. The key to it working perfectly is that the sender and receiver are both aimed straight into the fiber, which I try to adjust on each unit. Then there’s also the fit of the Toslink cable into the connectors, which can sometimes be imperfect, with the connectors sitting at a slight angle instead of straight. I must admit to having chosen the wrong part here - the fit is with many Toslink cables a bit too loose, so that moving the cable can cause the connector to tilt. Perhaps your new cable fits more tightly?

I thought of replacing those connectors in Sagatun to a tighter fitting model, but the tighter ones don’t have the same footprint on the board, so it’s a bit complicated.

There can also be slight variations between the supplied Toslink cables, likely due to how well they’ve ended the fiber. So if anyone has a recurring synch problem, a new cable can be provided to check whether it solves the problem. My pair of Sagatun Mono never looses their synch, unless I’ve accidentally bumped the Toslink so that it doesn’t sit straight in one of the connectors.

[Sopper]

It might well be that I just have been unlucky
No big problem though
Just thought I’d share the solution
It could be tighter fit or the use of several fibers

[Hermann]

I am aware of the problem of the lack of synchronization between the two Sagatuns. Up until now I had explained this by the distance to the listening position, which is a good 8m. Then I thought it was the Naim remote control. But it still occurs sporadically without the cable being moved.

With V1.4 the problem was solved by turning the volume down to 0 and then increasing it. Since V1.7 this is no longer possible, the VVs have to be switched off. If a new TOS cable solves or reduces the problem, I am of course interested.

[Sopper]

I am aware of the problem of the lack of synchronization between the two Sagatuns. Up until now I had explained this by the distance to the listening position, which is a good 8m. Then I thought it was the Naim remote control. But it still occurs sporadically without the cable being moved.

With V1.4 the problem was solved by turning the volume down to 0 and then increasing it. Since V1.7 this is no longer possible, the VVs have to be switched off. If a new TOS cable solves or reduces the problem, I am of course interested.

Since the new Toslink cable I have not had a synchronization problem, so it probably worked

[Hermann]

Thanks Sopper. I found that cable in a shop. But first I'll try a simpler model.

[lejonklou]

With V1.4 the problem was solved by turning the volume down to 0 and then increasing it. Since V1.7 this is no longer possible, the VVs have to be switched off. If a new TOS cable solves or reduces the problem, I am of course interested.

Hello Hermann!

Why is that approach no longer possible with version 1.7?

Please note that if you are having synch problems, you may also try to reverse Master and Servant on the two Sagatun Mono's. Flip the tiny switch on the rear panel from Master to Servant on one unit, from Servant to Master on the other and then install the Toslink in the appropriate connectors on both units.

[lejonklou]

As an aside, I can mention that the reason behind the sensitivity of the Control Link is - well, you probably guessed it already - sound quality.

The sender (Master) outputs a very weak signal that the receiver (Servant) needs to pick up. It's really easy to make it super reliable by changing one resistor. Reception can then be made perfect even if the Toslink has fallen out of its connector and is lying on the shelf behind the unit!

But it turned out that even though the processor is asleep when no remote commands are being sent, that resistor still has an influence on sound quality. It was an annoying discovery, especially since this link was the fourth and by far the best sounding solution I had found. The first was an electrical connection between the processors, galvanically isolated with capacitors, the second was a transformer isolated communication link and the third was a high impedance onewire system. This fourth optically isolated system had the smallest negative impact on the music. And just when I thought I'd made the Control Link completely musically transparent, I found that this darn resistor needed to be very high in resistance - or a slight negative impact on the music could once again be heard.

So I did two things: First I tested a lot of Toslink cables, to see which ones gave the most reliable Link. Found one that was better than all the others and that's the one I supplied. Then I tested the Link with various resistances, found the limit where the reception remained 100% over twenty full volume ramps up and down. And then I settled for a slightly lower resistance, to compensate for future accumulation of dust and pollution.

When I listened to the chosen resistor, I found that I could just barely notice its negative influence on the music. So mission accomplished, I thought! But apparently the synch is still not perfect all of the time for some of you, likely due to a combination of the already mentioned angle of sender and receiver, Toslink fit in connector and individual variations between the Toslink cables.

It would sure be great if a better Toslink cable could solve this. Otherwise it's an easy fix with one exchanged resistor. But I fear you would say that it doesn't sound quite as good as before.

[Hermann]

Thanks for the description of the background, Fredrik. The asynchrony has occurred a few times since V1.7. The first time I noticed that turning the volume down to zero didn't make any difference. Only turning it off solves the problem.

Switching between masters and servants has no effect on the synchronization of the two preamps. I also checked the position of the TOSlink cable.

Today a different TOS cable is being delivered, which I will use to continue to investigate the matter. The next step will then be Sopper's recommendation.

(Maybe this should be moved to the Sagatun thread)

[lejonklou]

Thank you for your description!

The Link works exactly as before, so turning it down to zero works fine. Or using the front buttons on Servant.

[Hermann]

I'll test it again as soon as it happens. I know that the buttons on the servant can be used to balance things out, but the question remains, does the color really match the master? Turning the volume down and up again seemed like the better choice.

[lejonklou]

You can always go to a "decade point", where the ramping up or down pauses for a second. 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, etc.

If the Servant isn't at the decade point, it's easy to find it with its front buttons by either ramping up or down until the pause. Or you can click one step at a time. The decade points give a shorter blink when you go one step at a time, so they can be seen both when ramping and when going one volume step at a time.

[Hermann]

Thanks Fredrik, that's very helpful.

[Hermann]

I swapped the TOS cable for a simple one from Amazon five weeks ago and was curious to see if there was a change. It should be noted that there was a strong tendency for thunderstorms in our region, so the system was disconnected from the power several times. After that, the default volume value is automatically set.

So far the out-of-sync volume has occurred twice.

The first time was easy to restore the balance following Fredriks instructions. But it was not clear why the difference occurred.

The second case was very clear because I observed the following. The LED on the right channel (master) flickered, as did on the left channel. However, the color of the left channel remained at the setting, while the right channel changed color accordingly. This made the left channel quieter.

[Sopper]

I swapped the TOS cable for a simple one from Amazon five weeks ago and was curious to see if there was a change. It should be noted that there was a strong tendency for thunderstorms in our region, so the system was disconnected from the power several times. After that, the default volume value is automatically set.

So far the out-of-sync volume has occurred twice.

The first time was easy to restore the balance following Fredriks instructions. But it was not clear why the difference occurred.

The second case was very clear because I observed the following. The LED on the right channel (master) flickered, as did on the left channel. However, the color of the left channel remained at the setting, while the right channel changed color accordingly. This made the left channel quieter.

I have had no out-of-sync since the new toslink cable I’ve mentioned

[Hermann]

I'm not sure how to classify your experience. I changed the cable and tried other things, such as positions of the remote control, etc.

Over time, a certain state of unclear communication seems to have developed between the two Sagatuns. I have no explanations and have eliminated influences as best I can. The last observation points to a misguided synchronization, the cause of which is triggered by the operation, but does not show any traceable character. Unpredictable behavior, so to speak.

[ThomasOK]

One other thing you might try is switching which unit you use as the servant and which as the master. Change the switches on the back of both and then plug the cable into the connector on each that wasn't being used. On the units I had the socket had loosened up over time (of course I took them to shows and dealers for demo so they were plugged and unplugged more than normal). Switching got rid of a sync problem caused by this looseness. Worth a try.

[Hermann]

Thanks Tom. In addition to batteries, even rechargeables, TOS cables and remote controls from other systems, the hierarchy change between the two Sagatuns was also tested, but unfortunately without success. It's really not earth-shattering, it just needs attention sometimes.

[lejonklou]

A new version of Sagatun and Sagatun Mono will be released after the holidays. It consists of a new firmware, flashed in a different way than before. Some minor adjustments to functionality has been made: Default volume limit is now 80 (which is where Boazu/Tundra/Tundra Mono will never clip with Källa as source) and reboot (so that you can for instance remove the default volume limit) is now done with one button only, like on Boazu. Press and hold the front panel MUTE button for 5 seconds and the unit reboots.

But the main improvement is in sound quality. And this was accomplished mainly by trial and error, as any alteration of the firmware affects the musicality of the unit. The patterns are mostly random with some weak patterns. Sometimes the music changes just a tiny bit, sometimes it changes fundamentally. So my low level programmer made many versions of the same program (functionally), and they were evaluated by ear. After a couple of months of constant failures when trying to improve upon the best sounding firmware from 2014, I feared that we wouldn't be able to reach our goal of making a better sounding firmware. I also sensed (perhaps incorrectly) that the patience of my programmer was running out. So I asked for alternative versions of the so far most promising firmwares, received four new versions and the very last one hit bullseye! Sheer luck at this point, as all the others had sounded inferior to the best version from 2014, when we went through the exact same procedure, evaluation more than 30 versions.

1.8 is tighter, better structured and cleaner sounding. The upgrade will require a trip of the unit(s) to Uppsala, Sweden or Westland, Michigan, USA. The cost will be SEK 1800, €180 or $180 per unit, plus the cost of return shipping.

I should also mention that I would love to make a completely new version of Sagatun Mono, as they are currently out of stock everywhere. But that project, if it succeeds, will likely not be completed until far away in the future (perhaps late 2025?). I am currently trying to make a smaller and better sounding case, but my first attempts at this have failed. They just don't sound as good as the original case and the differences are not subtle. I'm not satisfied with keeping the original dimensions, however, when I know that the electronics could fit in a smaller case. And when I picture both channels on one shelf, side by side, it just looks so neat!

In the meantime, I had Oscar go through a carton full of Sagatun parts and we concluded that we could build at least one last pair of Sagatun Mono 1.8. So that pair will be completed after the holidays and will be for sale.

[Hermann]

Thank you for the insight and outlook.
Am I right in assuming that the Sagatuns can receive the upgrade immediately (probably after the holidays)?

[lejonklou]

Hi Hermann!

Yes, the new firmware will be available in the beginning of the new year.

[Hermann]

Thank you very much, a lovely Christmas present.

[tokenbrit]

A new version of Sagatun and Sagatun Mono will be released after the holidays. It consists of a new firmware, flashed in a different way than before...

1.8 is tighter, better structured and cleaner sounding.

Another gift for our system? Well they have been good and, hopefully, will be even 'gooder' next year :)

The "tighter" & "cleaner" descriptions of the new firmware have me curious how this will sound with 3677s: hopefully a good match - is there a risk of cleaner & leaner?

Thanks, and happy holidays to you & yours, Fredrik.