It's not possible to bridge Tundra using an unbalanced signal. At least not in any simple way.
Using a balanced signal, it's possible, but not necessarily better. I've already spent some time with this and it certainly increases power output, as both channels in one Tundra would be driving one speaker (turning it into a mono power amplifier - one would need two Tundras to drive a pair of loudspeakers). But there's also a number of sound quality related factors that become affected. And sound quality comes first!
If it turns out there actually is a way to make bridged mode become both more powerful and even better sounding, I will make sure it's a conversion that can be applied to any Tundra, if the owner so wishes.
paolo wrote:Many congratulations for your Thundra introduction Fredrik!!!
Cannot wait the moment to have you in Italy and listen to it.
Thank you, Paolo!
There will be a Tundra show in Rome, as soon as I am able to. First I will make sure the first batch performs up to spec and then I will visit the UK. Stay tuned!
lejonklou wrote:If it turns out there actually is a way to make bridged mode become both more powerful and even better sounding, I will make sure it's a conversion that can be applied to any Tundra, if the owner so wishes.
That would be really cool, great upgrade path!
I'm very impressed by Tundra, very much music and very little hifi! It made Linn Klimax Twin sound hifi-ish when Tundra played music right here, right now. Has its own personality, doesn't sound like Linn.
I am in London during the week after eastern. Is it possible to listen to Tundra in this time?
I should have made the reservations last week, but things got extremely busy here with the assembly of the first batch. So at this very moment, I don't know which dates it will be.
I will keep you posted on where I go and when, in this thread and also under News on the website. Apologies to customers and retailers for not having sent out newsletters with more information about Tundra yet!
Efraim roots wrote:I'm very impressed by Tundra, very much music and very little hifi!
I have now heard the Tundra in three different systems. My local dealers KDS/1-KK/1 system vs A2200/D (1/2'a 4200) and KCT/D. This was a very convincing demo. The Tundra vas better than both of them, just more music.
I then heard it in a KDS/1-KK/0 system (with A212/A226) vs a KCT(no D). This was also pretty convincing. In this demo we realised that the Tundra requires about 7-10 songs of playing music (not just plugged in and on) before it performes at a level reasonably close to it's best. This applies to both sound and music. The KCT also has some warmup before it plays at it's best, but not as much. This demo confirmed that the Tundra plays better music than the KCT. Much more emotional and involving. My guess is that this KCT sounds just as good or maybe even better than the KCT/D at the dealer. (Not a dealer demo, it was on loan for the Tundra event.)
I have also heard the Tundra in my own LP12-ADS/1 system and can confirm both the warmup time and the performance. I didn't have any problems with a lack of power in any of the tested systems/rooms.
I think that anyone demoing the Tundra vs any other power amp should be aware of the time for warmup. Play at least 15 minutes with it before comparing. I think that some of the comments on sound quality (vs KCT's "Klimax sound") is based on hearing the Tundra in a cold or semicold state. When warm I think the Tundra has very good sound to, just a bit different than the Linn stuff. This Tundra is also very new, it is being tested vs amps that have already been burned in. Maybe there is even more to come?
The Tundra is a very musical and fun power amp that will enhance the music in almost any system, except systems that require lots of power and already has K.Solo/D. For the amount of money it costs I think this really is a bargain for anyone wanting to buy a power amp.
Last edited by Linnofil on 2012-09-25 09:41, edited 1 time in total.
It is very interesting to read all these reports and also the translated ones form the other forums. Thanks to all who have commented and those who made the translation links. It certainly sounds like Fredrik has come up with quite a product and I look forward to listening to it once it arrives stateside. I did have one question for Linnofil. In you first paragraph you mention comparing it to a KDS/D at a local dealer. Would this actually be a KCT/D? Just wanted to make sure.
If the Tundra does turn out to easily outperform the 200 series, and performs musically as well or better than a KCT/D then it is a true bargain and will make the Lejonklou brand even more successful. Since we have A2200/D, KCT/D and Solos (non-D) at the store I will be able to do these comparisons for myself here. I look forward to it and will report back when I've been able to give it a good listen. Congratulations Fredrik!
Just another quick note before I have to fly to work. I covered this in depth in a post on page 4 of this thread but I thought a brief recap would help. On the subject of continuous power, one of the least efficient current speakers I have had contact with is the ATC SCM7 which is a roughly M109 sized box but sealed and with an efficiency of 84dB 1 watt, 1 meter. Following up on the earlier thread this means a pair will put out 84dB continuous when driven by 2 watts at a typical 2 meter listening distance. Again each doubling of power gives 3dB more output so 16 watts is 93dB meaning the 24 watts of the Tundra is about 94dB. As stated in the previous post on this, 94dB continuous will cause permanent hearing damage in ONE hour! A speaker with an additional efficiency of 4 or 5dB as with current Linn speakers would raise the level by that amount and would cause permanent hearing damage in ONE HALF hour or less! So the Tundra certainly has enough continuous power for most situations - otherwise get a pair of Solos. ;-)
Seriously, as has been mentioned it is the ability to drive real speakers, with their loads that vary with frequency and volume level, and provide the peak power for transients and the current necessary for really good control of the woofer(s) that makes for an amp that can properly drive the speakers to satisfying levels. From all reports it appears that the Tundra does just that. I find it funny, having just recently having finished reading the Quad book, that it was felt in the 60s that the 15 watts per channel of the Quad II amp was all you would ever need - and that some of the Hi-Fi reviewers of the day still feel that way - despite the relatively low efficiency of the original Quad ELS. Now we have amplifier manufacturers trying to convince us that we need a Kilowatt amp to do our systems justice. Just as in cars there will always be those who equate more with better when it is really just more (and, more often than not, the worse for it).
Linnofil wrote:
I think that anyone demoing the Tundra vs any other power amp should be aware of the time for warmup. Play at least 15 minutes with it before comparing. I think that some of the comments on sound quality (vs KCT's "Klimax sound") is based on hearing the Tundra in a cold or semicold state.
During the Tonlaget demo, Fredrik had Tundra and Twin both powered up but only one was used playing music. Then we played a few minutes on each and went back and forth many times. Do you think Tundra must play music constantly to perform best?
When we compared Tundra with non-Dynamiked Solo/Twin, Tundra was powered up 2h in advance.
I had it playing music over night at low volume, same conclusion the day after.
I also think Tundra going to get better after burning in.
Can't wait comparing it again!
Working on a post describing my thoughts on Tundra. Stay tuned!
Tundra has been compared in 3 different Klimax systems (212 and 242 of different generations) and in an Akurate system with 109.
Akurate, Twin, Twin/D and Solo (10+ years old) have been used.
Quite a few Linn owners have now compared the amps in more than one system. Some have compared in three of them.
The more dedicated have compared many times since Wednesday.
(as you know, I like to compare many times/different systems to get a good baseline before making clear statements)
Since not all persons have accounts on this forum I intend to write a quick summary of the input received during demos, from PM's and phone calls.
Some of the forum members already posted their impressions.
Anyway, here it goes:
- nobody prefer Akurate over Tundra (already this is quite an achievement)
- many people prefer Tundra over Twin, regardless of Dynamik or not
- Solo vs Tundra. Only 4 attendees and only one system so difficult to draw conclusions but two persons prefer non-Dynamik Twin/Solos over Tundra, two persons having difficulties picking the best as they consider Tundra having strengths and weaknesses.
Disclaimer:
1/ I haven't spoke with all visitors on Wednesday so there may be some that don't like Tundra at all, OR that actually most prefer Tundra over Twin. (I actually think most is the correct word but I settled with many)
2/ I use the word "prefer" above, as I'm not sure if all of them using Tune Dem, OR actually using Tune Dem but also have the sound signature as an evaluation criteria. So "prefer" can be a mixture of musical performance and sound presentation.
3/ I may have misunderstood some comments
If we talking about sound only, I would say the the general consensus among those I communicated with is very clear.
The pecking order:
Akurate/Tundra (very similar), Twin (big difference. less rough, more analogue, more details, better separation, similar dynamic), Twin/D (quite the same), Solos (huge difference. Better dynamic, bass, even more analogue, more information)
Also this a great achievement by Fredrik!
Musical performance, at last you say ;-)
My personal view is the following:
Akurate, Twin and Twin/D vs Tundra
The Linn amps are rather close to each other.
I know it has been discussed many times and regardless how many times I compare these, this is my conclusion.
Anyway - Overall, all these are less musical than Tundra!!
Having said that, Tundra has a slightly Naimish PRaT signature (fun, groovy, on it's feet, little rough) that is added on all recordings. A person described it as "sounds like a PA-system".
Not sure if it's that musical character that makes Tundra excel on complex non-detailed music where a lot of things happens at same time. Makes it very easy to understand the intention in the music.
Using these kind of recordings, Tundra is clearly better!
Using other recordings, the performance can be close to the Linn amps.
Normally Tundra is better; slightly, more, a lot - depending of the record used.
Likely, some will consider this character an advantage, some will likely not noticing it, some going to dislike it. However you only hear it comparing with Klimax amps due to their supreme smoothness.
non-Dynamiked Solo vs Tundra
On some recordings (se above) Tundra is better, on some (recordings with bigger bandwidth and details, example classical) Solos is better.
Some other recordings, they are close.
Due to the massive difference in sound, standing a few rooms away makes it easier to focus on the music and NOT focus on the sound.
Sometimes Tundra is a tiny tad after in the bass.
Analysis:
I think Tundra is very musical specially in the midrange and overall good at managing distinct sounds. (so all sounds making sense together)
Solos benefit from having a great ability to reproduce details, harmonics and overtones.
Solo is a lot more powerful. We played (with KK mkII) Tundra on volume 58 to 63 with no issues. Once, we played on 70 during 20 sec and we felt that we started to reach the limit due to slightly dynamical compression.
Above volumes corresponds to 50, 55 and 63 using Solos.
Not super high but I easily trade power for quality!
Summary
Tundra vs Akurate; similar sound but Tundra is more musical - easy decision!
Tundra vs Twin; Twin quite a lot better sound but Tundra is normally more musical - easy decision for me as I never ever liked Twin (as Twin don't have that much better musical performance compared with Akurate, better sounding that Akurate but a LOT more expensive. However Twin make sense around 3k£ on eBay)
I understand some prefer the nice sound in Twin and can live with the loss i musicality.
Remember, regardless of amps in this comparrasion, all are VERY musical and performance differences are bigger in the source and pre-amp.
Tundra vs non-Dynamiked Solo;
This is a tricky one as both have musical strengths. Solo is a LOT more consistent as Tundra add a sort of rock, up-beat musical character.
Different recording characters are better reproduced on Solo.
The difference in sound is quite massive - nuances, 3D information and instruments are sometimes lost in all non-Solo amps. Same with dynamic, bass performance and power.
But the increased musicality on many recordings using Tundra is addictive.
Using some classical recordings it's not the case. Weird.
To conclude, Tundra is sensational !!
To produce such an good amp on the first attempt is simply unbelievable - well done Fredrik.
And this is just the beginning, give Fredrik a few more years development time and...
I have heard and participated at two of the above mentioned events; one at Tonlaget (the demo conducted by Lejonklou) and one at Music Lover's home. The systems have consisted of KDS/1 or (close to) top spec. LP12, KK/1 and 242 (old version at Music Lovers and new ones at Tonlaget).
At Tonlaget I had a weird feeling of not really comprehending the character of Tundra. On one hand it made every recording to sound like live, but I did not really connect with the music. At Tonlaget it felt like the system needed to have the speakers re-positioned in order to get the instruments to play tightly together. This is something I have a very hard time to live with. The energy and sound was very impressing though and I left the event with a positive attitude that the Tundra might well be an exceptional amp, but also with a feeling that there might be something wrong or missing from this demo.
At Music Lover's comparison I felt the Solo was quite clearly more musical! As has been mentioned before the sound of both Linn Klimax amps is much more pleasant to the ear and includes much more information while the Tundra adds some, but clearly audible distorsion presenting a distinct character of its own. The Tundra pushed the (at the moment) loudest instruments forward to the speaker plane in a (from my point of view) non desirable way. It also striked me as erasing nuances in the musicians playing, much like found with much lesser amps such as Arcam or simpler Naim amps, but at the same time being very distinct and extremely puchy, very live-like.
I also found the Solo to be clearly better than the Twin, especially the amps ability not to disturb my feeling of the music. I thought the Twin also was clearly better than the Tundra in this respect. Though I would like to do further comparisons, especially v.s. the lesser Linn amps to make a better understanding of the performance of the Tundra.
Do not get me wrong. I think the Tundra is very good, but not at the level previously indicated by others. I have to listen to it alot more to make up my mind better though and from what I remember most comparisons were made quite directly after powering up the Tundra. This might shift my opinion also.
Last edited by hcl on 2012-03-29 16:15, edited 2 times in total.
Thank you everyone for the extensive feedback you've shared on number 001, here and on other forums!
The unit has just returned after its tour around the Gothenburg area. There's about two weeks until the first batch arrives, so in the meantime I'm going to have a close look on the details you've commented.
One of them is that Tundra needs to be warm to perform at the peak of its performance. This was reported already when the prototypes were tested late last year. Personally, I think Tundra performs great from the first minute, but I do agree that sound quality improves (it opens up and becomes smoother) when it's been playing for 10 minutes. Tundra therefore has a disadvantage when making quick comparisons, switching back and forth between different amplifiers.
It could possibly also explain an impression that was reported on a Swedish forum; the guys who compared Tundra to a pair of higly regarded mono amplifiers said that they tended to prefer the amplifier that was last being played on. If this impression was due to the warming up phenomenon, I imagine the comparisons went like this: The mono amplifiers performed great, then were replaced by a cold Tundra, which seemed to perform worse ("the last one we played on was better"). Then Tundra warmed up and performed great, and was replaced by the mono amplifiers, which seemed to perform worse ("the last one we played on was better"). Just speculating here, as I wasn't present on the occasion.
One of two parameters that is fine tuned on each Tundra before it's shipped to the customer is the idling current. I will reevaluate the exact setting of this, as it influences the warm up time and also slightly affects sound quality.
When idling (switched on but not playing music), Tundra consumes 15 Watts of power. It does not have any standby feature, it's either on or off. As the heat sink is coupled to the case, it takes a few hours (I will measure how many) for Tundra to reach a stable and optimal temperature when idling. I personally leave it switched on if I'm around the house and likely to use it.
I am looking for a new preamp but I do not want to pay the price for a KK.
After the successful release of Tundra I hope very much that your next project will be the matching preamp for Tundra.
Myself on the other hand are tired waiting onLinn releasing a Komri replacement.
I think a one-way speaker design or a two-way design would be great!
This to avoid a complex X-over that mess up the music.
Those requiring low bass, just add a Linn sub.
I have a name that goes in line with Tundra, Tumult.
A speaker that shake up the speaker market needs a corresponding name.
I know Fredrik has some concerns regarding the name, but I guess I have some time to work on that small obstacle ;-)
I am looking for a new preamp but I do not want to pay the price for a KK.
After the successful release of Tundra I hope very much that your next project will be the matching preamp for Tundra.
Myself on the other hand are tired waiting onLinn releasing a Komri replacement.
I think a one-way speaker design or a two-way design would be great!
This to avoid a complex X-over that mess up the music.
Those requiring low bass, just add a Linn sub.
I have a name that goes in line with Tundra, Tumult.
A speaker that shake up the speaker market needs a corresponding name.
I know Fredrik has some concerns regarding the name, but I guess I have some time to work on that small obstacle ;-)
Have you heard of Lowther? Probably close to the end of te road conserning full range drivers.
If you look at Fredrik's obsession with signal preservation in the Tundra design, I would imagine he would relish the opportunity (challenge) to eliminate the passive crossover from a speaker.
ThomasOK wrote:A one-way Komri replacement - now that's what I call a design challenge!
Bring on the Tumult!
Hi Thomas
I know we're in different time zones, but over here you posted this at 3.17am on 1st April....We should just make it official that the Lejonklou Tumult is the Komri replacement. See how many Linn fans pick that up on a Google search. Devious smiley icon required.
How I love being wrong! And no, this is no April Fool's joke.
As promised, I spent some time (two days to be exact) rigging and measuring the exact temperatures and idling currents of Tundra during dynamic conditions. This led to a better understanding of the behaviour and to a more optimal way to fine tune each Tundra before it's shipped.
The main advantage of the new tuning is that Tundra now peforms even better than before, with less distortion and a smoother, cleaner, sound. And it performs optimally from the first minute, regardless of volume.
The time it takes to reach optimal temperature from the moment it's switched on is also shortened from several hours to about 30 minutes. Less if you play music. The only drawback is that power consumption when idling has increased to 30 Watts. But as the warming up is now so fast, it can without worries be switched off when not in use.
I'm very pleased to have nailed this procedure before the first units are being shipped. And my thanks go to those (Linnofil in particular) who gave me feedback on how Tundra number 001 sounded smoother after playing loud for a while. This is no longer necessary.
Great stuff Fredrik, but aren't there any dealers further north in the UK? I was hoping you'd possibly be able to visit a dealer in Yorkshire. Good luck, I bet it's stunning.
ADS3/SagMono/Tundra 2.2- . Totem Tribe Tower.
Lejonklou demos available in the N of England.
