Lejonklou owners - what cables are you using?

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coverto
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Lejonklou owners - what cables are you using?

Post by coverto »

Hi all,

Longtime lurker here and only lately starting to speak up. I am determined to own the Boazu 2 sometime later this year. In the meantime, I am obsessively planning. A key issue is cabling. I've been reading this forum and it seems many if not most Lejonklou owners are using Linn silver interconnects, as well as very inexpensive (often homemade) power cords, and of course the modified K400 speaker cables, per Fredrik's specifications.

Per Fredrik's advice, I have taken a first step of installing a Netgear GS108Tv2 in front of the Blue Jeans ethernet cable that' feeds my streamer. Now, I am thinking about speaker cables. I am wondering -- is the K400 really all that? Are there folks here who have A/B'd K400 with highly reputable (and maybe pricier) cables and seen the K400 prevail? I see so many people on other audio forums saying the K400 is nothing special. Is there a special synergy with Lejonklou?

Another K400 issue for me is that I need my speaker cables to be a little over 3m long -- the 2.48m specified by Fredrik won't work in my setup. Will 3m K400s still beat anything else out there when paired with one of Fredrik's amps? Mind you -- I am prepared to believe it!

Aside from that, I am especially curious to hear from any forumites who have tested the K400s, the Linn Silvers and the Volex power cords against highly regarded, maybe expensive and better-known brands. Are there a few quieter forumites who have found combos they like more than the Linn cabling, for example? And if not, how in the world do we explain this?

Many thanks in advance!
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Re: Lejonklou owners - what cables are you using?

Post by Sopper »

Hello Coverto,

Welcome to this forum and to Lejonklou
Seems you have found your way to the most musical hardware in audio-world

In general Linn Silver (some prefer Linn black), stock power cables and split k400 are regarded to be the most musical with Lejonklou gear, but usually also Linn, Naim, etc. gear.
Best performing lengths are 120cm interconnect, 248cm speaker cable, 180cm power cord and 250cm cat cable
Shorter is always worse then longer > meaning, the longer the cable it will gradually loose some of the musicality. So choose the right length, but rather longer then shorter.

There are folks that use different cables, but usually they keep quiet about it, just like folks using Qobuz instead of Spotify.

In my experience, if you want to experiment: the speaker cable has the least impact.
The earlier in the chain, the more impact.

1. Interconnect
2. power
3. accessories and tweaks
4. speaker cable

This is my hierarchy of impact
Not just theory, but trial and error with many many cables, tweaks, etc.
We judge by ear and call it the tune method; it needs practice but once mastered it’s very valuable to evaluate changes.
I suggest you read about it
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Re: Lejonklou owners - what cables are you using?

Post by David Neel »

Is K400 really that good? I've compared it with my previous Linn K200 (the new silver one, not cut down K400) and the K400 is what I've used since. Recently I tried another brand of "reassuringly expensive" speaker cables from a very well-reviewed manufacturer, and they killed the music.

I also tried some interconnects from the same manufacturer - same story, even Linn blacks were much better, and silvers more so. That's not a very wide range of comparison, but when I occasionally go to audio shows there are usually cable demonstrations. I can usually hear sonic changes as cables get more expensive, but I've not found musical benefits.

And then there is the debacle of my extensive experiments with power cords and blocks. I'm back to standard Lejonklou power cables and a cheap, simple extension block.

Similarly, when my Kandid recently died, I arranged a demo of a cartridge which was reviewed in glowing terms, and which was recommended by several Linn dealers as being "alive" "musical" "fun and enjoyable". Suffice to say it was sonically wonderful, but no more than that. I now have another Kandid.

My feeling is that much hifi is good at reproducing sound, but unable to engage long-term attention because it is musically lacking. So in this context, where a system's musicality is limited, it can be easy to find sonic improvements. But if a system is inherently musical to begin with, these same "improvements" will be heard to degrade the music.
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Re: Lejonklou owners - what cables are you using?

Post by beck »

David Neel wrote: 2024-06-22 08:04 My feeling is that much hifi is good at reproducing sound, but unable to engage long-term attention because it is musically lacking. So in this context, where a system's musicality is limited, it can be easy to find sonic improvements. But if a system is inherently musical to begin with, these same "improvements" will be heard to degrade the music.
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Re: Lejonklou owners - what cables are you using?

Post by Spannko »

Sopper wrote: 2024-06-22 07:36 ….. the speaker cable has the least impact.
Not in my experience. Everything in a system is important. There are no weak points. Changing K400/2 for the next most musical loudspeaker cable I know of (K20) has an immediate detrimental effect upon a system’s overall musicality.
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Re: Lejonklou owners - what cables are you using?

Post by Charlie1 »

I use Linn Silver ICs, but the cheaper black ICs might suit your system / ears better so I wouldn't rule them out. Watch out for dealer made pairs of either type as I'm told they won't sound anything like as good.

I don't like gear between the speakers so both of my setups use 5m-long runs, using K400 with Lejonklou amps and K20 with vintage Naim.

I seem to recall Fredrik said that if you can't do 2.48m then multiples work very well, so 4.96m is still very good, but not as good. He said the main thing is to avoid shorter runs, so going 10% shorter than 2.48 is much worse than going 10% longer.
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Re: Lejonklou owners - what cables are you using?

Post by lejonklou »

coverto wrote: 2024-06-22 03:43 Will 3m K400s still beat anything else out there when paired with one of Fredrik's amps?
So far I find that to be the case. But I really long for the day I hear something more musically coherent and engaging.
Charlie1 wrote: 2024-06-22 12:56 I seem to recall Fredrik said that if you can't do 2.48m then multiples work very well, so 4.96m is still very good, but not as good.
No, I have never said that. Fact is that I can’t recall having had any such experience (that multiples of a certain length sound better than lengths in between) with any cable.

What I did find was that, regardless of amp and speakers used (including aktiv speakers that don’t have any crossover), 248 cm of K400 (measured when cutting, before termination, and with conductors twisted inside the black outer jacket) has “perfect timing”. The attack and decay of notes are in harmony.

Shorter than 248 cm gets progressively more attack and less decay. The music feels rushed and gets tiring to listen to.

Longer than 248 cm gets progressively more “laid back” and the music shifts towards more decay and less attack. It’s not tiring to listen to, just more relaxed. The change feels linear, so 3 m is preferable to 5 m, but I still find 5 m enjoyable to listen to.
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Re: Lejonklou owners - what cables are you using?

Post by lejonklou »

David Neel wrote: 2024-06-22 08:04 My feeling is that much hifi is good at reproducing sound, but unable to engage long-term attention because it is musically lacking. So in this context, where a system's musicality is limited, it can be easy to find sonic improvements. But if a system is inherently musical to begin with, these same "improvements" will be heard to degrade the music.
That is so well said! Spot on.
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Re: Lejonklou owners - what cables are you using?

Post by lejonklou »

Sopper wrote: 2024-06-22 07:36 Best performing lengths are 120cm interconnect, 248cm speaker cable, 180cm power cord and 250cm cat cable
Shorter is always worse then longer > meaning, the longer the cable it will gradually loose some of the musicality. So choose the right length, but rather longer then shorter.
I agree and disagree.

Is 120 cm an optimal length for certain analogue interconnects or perhaps for all of them? I’m unsure of that but haven’t done a proper investigation. Of the many interconnects I’ve made, I have often found 1 m sounding a little better than longer. But it’s a small difference, much smaller than with loudspeaker cables. I have done very short interconnects but never been completely convinced by them, so went back to 1 m as my standard. Again, small differences. What the optimal length is I don’t know.

248 cm is the optimal length of Linn K400 loudspeaker cable. I have never investigated the optimal lengths of other speaker cables. They might very well vary.

Around 250 cm for CAT cables has been a pattern so far. And like with speaker cables, I find longer than 250 cm preferable to shorter than 250 cm.

Optimal length of power cords seems to vary with the construction.
Best length of North American 18 awg power cords appears to be somewhere around 180 cm or 6 feet.
Best length of many UK power cords with a fuse in the plug and 0.75 mm2 conductors is around 2 m. But I once used a model that sounded best at 3 m.
Best length of most European Shuko power cords with 1 mm2 conductors is somewhere around 2.5 m.

Those are some of my findings. Some could be wrong.
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Re: Lejonklou owners - what cables are you using?

Post by ThomasOK »

My reference is still Volex J US power cables, Linn Silver Interconnects (with original RCAs if possible but the newer slotted RCAs are still good) and K248 speaker cables made of split K400 or K600. Also the BJC 8.5foot CAT6a ethernet cables. I am not going to name names but I have had access to a wide range of cables from inexpensive copper cables to some of the most expensive and complex plated copper cables to hand made pure silver in "air-dielectric" teflon tubes. While they certainly varied in sound I have not found any of them as musical as my reference cables and some were quite substantially worse.

In my experience these cables work well with any really musical electronics and speakers.

I am also totally with David Neel on his comments above.
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Re: Lejonklou owners - what cables are you using?

Post by ekay2012 »

Does anyone have experience with Auditorium 23 interconnects and speaker cables? I am in need of longer speaker cables (currently using Iconoclast, a “hifi” Belden product, that I am happy with ). I have Auditorium 23 interconnects but not sure which direction to head for speaker cables. Source some Linn k400 or Auditorium 23? Any thoughts appreciated.
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Re: Lejonklou owners - what cables are you using?

Post by coverto »

Thanks all!

Much appreciate all of the thoughtful feedback, including and especially from Fredrik! I think I am convinced to take the plunge on the K400s, the Linn Silvers and -- who knows? -- a Volex power cord! A couple of follow-up questions:

1) With the Linn interconnects, it seems there are some quality control concerns out there? How do I make sure to get a good pair?

2) With the K400s, how noticeable is the timing issue when going from 2.48m to 3m? Is it worth considering changing my setup?

3) Would like to hear a bit more about the Volex J power cable -- having trouble finding it online!

Thanks!
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Re: Lejonklou owners - what cables are you using?

Post by coverto »

ekay2012 wrote: 2024-06-23 00:46 Does anyone have experience with Auditorium 23 interconnects and speaker cables? I am in need of longer speaker cables (currently using Iconoclast, a “hifi” Belden product, that I am happy with ). I have Auditorium 23 interconnects but not sure which direction to head for speaker cables. Source some Linn k400 or Auditorium 23? Any thoughts appreciated.
I briefly owned a pair of the A23 speaker cables years ago. It has been a while but my recollection is that I found them to be harmonically rich but somewhat lacking in dynamics and detail. I am guessing they'd be a step down from the Iconoclast, but only one way to find out.

Also curious -- do you use Lejonklou amps with your Iconoclasts? Have you tried the K400s?
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Re: Lejonklou owners - what cables are you using?

Post by David Neel »

coverto wrote: 2024-06-23 04:03
1) With the Linn interconnects, it seems there are some quality control concerns out there? How do I make sure to get a good pair?
I bought secondhand, originally, and have learned. The problem is not being able to inspect the cables first! My experience suggests that the early unslotted connectors (now very old) sound slightly better than the slotted connectors, and that factory produced cables can be slightly better than dealer-terminated ones, because of the consistently good soldering. The neatness and consistency of the soldering seems to be correlated with better performance. Ultimately I bought a full set of new silver IIs - you can tell the because the print on the cable says "analogue interconnect II" and they are again slightly better than before despite slotted connectors.
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Re: Lejonklou owners - what cables are you using?

Post by Charlie1 »

lejonklou wrote: 2024-06-22 15:24 No, I have never said that. Fact is that I can’t recall having had any such experience (that multiples of a certain length sound better than lengths in between) with any cable.

What I did find was that, regardless of amp and speakers used (including aktiv speakers that don’t have any crossover), 248 cm of K400 (measured when cutting, before termination, and with conductors twisted inside the black outer jacket) has “perfect timing”. The attack and decay of notes are in harmony.

Shorter than 248 cm gets progressively more attack and less decay. The music feels rushed and gets tiring to listen to.

Longer than 248 cm gets progressively more “laid back” and the music shifts towards more decay and less attack. It’s not tiring to listen to, just more relaxed. The change feels linear, so 3 m is preferable to 5 m, but I still find 5 m enjoyable to listen to.
That's really weird - I don't know where I got that idea from then.

Thanks for clarifying and apologies to the OP for the confusion.
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Re: Lejonklou owners - what cables are you using?

Post by Zee9 »

Is love to be added to the trial list if any cables are coming across the pond.
1. LP12/Selekt/5105/JMR Bliss Silver
2. WiiM/modi3+/TS 2.5/Kabers
3. Genki/Kairn/Majik-I/Kabers
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Re: Lejonklou owners - what cables are you using?

Post by ThomasOK »

ekay2012 wrote: 2024-06-23 00:46 Does anyone have experience with Auditorium 23 interconnects and speaker cables? I am in need of longer speaker cables (currently using Iconoclast, a “hifi” Belden product, that I am happy with ). I have Auditorium 23 interconnects but not sure which direction to head for speaker cables. Source some Linn k400 or Auditorium 23? Any thoughts appreciated.
I do not have any personal experience with Auditorium 23 cables, however, one of the reviewers with high praises for Lejonklou had this to say:

"I did most of my listening to the Boazu via vinyl. The source was the very musical Well Tempered Labs Amadeus Jr. turntable fitted with a Dynavector low output moving coil cartridge, the remarkable Lejonklou Entity moving coil (MC) phono preamplifier, Boazu integrated and Auditorium 23 Solovox with all connections through recommended Linn interconnects and speaker cables. The choice of vinyl had more to do with the Solovox's presence in the system than with anything else, though I would not underestimate the impact of the wonderful Entity on my decision.

As I've mentioned, Solovox favors vinyl; and if I could explain why I would. I have no scientifically acceptable explanation. On the other hand, I had never expected Linn interconnects or speaker cables to be part of the glue that would hold this system together, but they did. The Linn speaker cable, which had been unspectacular in other settings, made my baseline reference Auditorium 23 speaker cables seem unsure of themselves by comparison."

This is from Jules Coleman, who bought the Boazu and Entity and now owns the Entity, Sagatun stereo 1.7 and Tundra Mono 3s, which he finds revelatory. You can read the whole exceedingly positive Boazu review here: https://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/ ... Review.htm

These comments were echoed by a couple of my dealers who have told me that the Linn Silver interconnects and the K248 speaker cables just really bring the whole system together in a way that no other cables do. This is the main reason I have started to make the Nokturne Audio K248 speaker cables - so that my dealers have availability of them for their customers.
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Re: Lejonklou owners - what cables are you using?

Post by ThomasOK »

Charlie1 wrote: 2024-06-23 12:25
lejonklou wrote: 2024-06-22 15:24 No, I have never said that. Fact is that I can’t recall having had any such experience (that multiples of a certain length sound better than lengths in between) with any cable.

What I did find was that, regardless of amp and speakers used (including aktiv speakers that don’t have any crossover), 248 cm of K400 (measured when cutting, before termination, and with conductors twisted inside the black outer jacket) has “perfect timing”. The attack and decay of notes are in harmony.

Shorter than 248 cm gets progressively more attack and less decay. The music feels rushed and gets tiring to listen to.

Longer than 248 cm gets progressively more “laid back” and the music shifts towards more decay and less attack. It’s not tiring to listen to, just more relaxed. The change feels linear, so 3 m is preferable to 5 m, but I still find 5 m enjoyable to listen to.
That's really weird - I don't know where I got that idea from then.

Thanks for clarifying and apologies to the OP for the confusion.
You may be misremembering something I posted. I believe early on in the discussion of optimum length for K400 that I mentioned using a precise length was not unheard of. Nordost claimed that the optimum length for their interconnects and speaker cables was just a touch over 4 meters. They wouldn't specify it exactly but said that when 4 meters was ordered that made it to this exact length. They also said that precisely half the best length was the second best (so a touch over 2 meters) and a quarter, or just over a meter, was also good. Under a meter was highly recommended against. I don't recall hearing this kind of information from any other cable manufacturer, although Naim used to recommend not going under a certain length with their cable and electronics.
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Re: Lejonklou owners - what cables are you using?

Post by Sopper »

ThomasOK wrote: 2024-06-26 19:10 These comments were echoed by a couple of my dealers who have told me that the Linn Silver interconnects and the K248 speaker cables just really bring the whole system together in a way that no other cables do. This is the main reason I have started to make the Nokturne Audio K248 speaker cables - so that my dealers have availability of them for their customers.
Of all cables they have tried…
“No other cables” is absolute and nonsense as statement
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Re: Lejonklou owners - what cables are you using?

Post by ThomasOK »

Sopper wrote: 2024-06-26 19:27
ThomasOK wrote: 2024-06-26 19:10 These comments were echoed by a couple of my dealers who have told me that the Linn Silver interconnects and the K248 speaker cables just really bring the whole system together in a way that no other cables do. This is the main reason I have started to make the Nokturne Audio K248 speaker cables - so that my dealers have availability of them for their customers.
Of all cables they have tried…
“No other cables” is absolute and nonsense as statement
Ah, being pedantic, are we? I believe "that they have tried" was implied even if I did not expressly state it. How could one compare to something they have never heard? Also how could any one person compare every permutation of every cable by every manufacturer out there? That said we are talking reviewers and dealers with many decades involved in the industry who have experienced more products than most consumers. But all cables? I should think not!
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Re: Lejonklou owners - what cables are you using?

Post by Sopper »

Exactly
Interpretation of written word I guess
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Re: Lejonklou owners - what cables are you using?

Post by Charlie1 »

ThomasOK wrote: 2024-06-26 19:25 You may be misremembering something I posted. I believe early on in the discussion of optimum length for K400 that I mentioned using a precise length was not unheard of. Nordost claimed that the optimum length for their interconnects and speaker cables was just a touch over 4 meters. They wouldn't specify it exactly but said that when 4 meters was ordered that made it to this exact length. They also said that precisely half the best length was the second best (so a touch over 2 meters) and a quarter, or just over a meter, was also good. Under a meter was highly recommended against. I don't recall hearing this kind of information from any other cable manufacturer, although Naim used to recommend not going under a certain length with their cable and electronics.
Thanks Thomas - could have been that. My Hi-Fi memory is normally very good (but obviously off this time), whereas my normal memory is absolute rubbish! :)
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Re: Lejonklou owners - what cables are you using?

Post by lejonklou »

There was also a rumour in the early 90’s that as 120 cm was the standard length of Linn analogue interconnects, they likely sounded good in 60 and 240 cm too. Not sure where it originated, but I heard of it, cut a 120 cm interconnect in two and soldered new plugs on their ends.

Wasn’t overwhelmed with the result, but that was before Paolo alerted me to the issue of tip temperature and solder. And then we went down that rabbit hole, which lasted for decades and likely will never have an end. Then followed stations, tips, pens (all with their own optimal temperature), different gas pre-heating techniques and then the almost silly discovery that each roll of solder sounded different.

Anyway results gradually improved but that 60, 120 and 240 cm idea never seemed to prove itself. My suspicion is that its origin was radio signals and the antenna effect. Which at least in interconnects with a low impedance source and a high impedance receiver (and some filtering in that receiver as well) seems to be of low significance.
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