Pre-amplifiers/streamers for my newly acquired Tundra 2.2 Tarandus.

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Re: Pre-amplifiers/streamers for my newly acquired Tundra 2.2 Tarandus.

Post by lejonklou »

tpetsch wrote: 2023-03-02 00:03 My thoughts are a high quality phonostage -which is a quasi pre-amp- straight to amp, bypassing the need for a preamp altogether, keeping it simple, less stuff to get in the way, one less interconnect and so on, just a mute switch perhaps. ...But I totally agree that you'd probably only sell a few to dedicated vinyl listeners like myself, Superkikkin is also a neat idea FWIW.
Thank you!

Yes, one less pair of interconnects, the RCA’s in both ends and a different output stage on Entity will likely bring benefits. But I can’t think of anything else. The key thing is that it isn’t good to load the power supply of Entity with anything more that what it’s currently supplying. This is actually a very precise load that sounds optimal - a little more or a little less makes it perform worse. So the way I currently see it is that it would need to be “two separate circuits in one box”. And there are disadvantages to that as well.

I really enjoy thinking about and calculating on circuits of hypothetical products. It’s a bonus if they’re unconventional, as that usually involves previously untested solutions, which in turn can generate new ideas.

But if the appeal among buyers is very limited, it’s unlikely the thoughts will result in a product.
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Re: Pre-amplifiers/streamers for my newly acquired Tundra 2.2 Tarandus.

Post by tpetsch »

lejonklou wrote: 2023-03-02 23:02
tpetsch wrote: 2023-03-02 00:03 My thoughts are a high quality phonostage -which is a quasi pre-amp- straight to amp, bypassing the need for a preamp altogether, keeping it simple, less stuff to get in the way, one less interconnect and so on, just a mute switch perhaps. ...But I totally agree that you'd probably only sell a few to dedicated vinyl listeners like myself, Superkikkin is also a neat idea FWIW.
Thank you!

Yes, one less pair of interconnects, the RCA’s in both ends and a different output stage on Entity will likely bring benefits. But I can’t think of anything else. The key thing is that it isn’t good to load the power supply of Entity with anything more that what it’s currently supplying. This is actually a very precise load that sounds optimal - a little more or a little less makes it perform worse. So the way I currently see it is that it would need to be “two separate circuits in one box”. And there are disadvantages to that as well.

I really enjoy thinking about and calculating on circuits of hypothetical products. It’s a bonus if they’re unconventional, as that usually involves previously untested solutions, which in turn can generate new ideas.

But if the appeal among buyers is very limited, it’s unlikely the thoughts will result in a product.
Thanks for that in depth explanation and about the loading issues coming from a builders point of view. I just remember this thing I read years ago, read something like "the best preamp is a piece of wire from source to amp" meaning everything added on top of that piece of wire , switches, volume control and so on only adds more distortions.
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Re: Pre-amplifiers/streamers for my newly acquired Tundra 2.2 Tarandus.

Post by Defender »

lejonklou wrote: 2023-03-02 15:07
matthias wrote: 2023-03-02 07:36
lejonklou wrote: 2023-03-01 21:18 That’s why Superkikkin has two inputs.
I assume there is no input switch similar to Boazu?
No, it’s a mechanical switch on Superkikkin.
If I remember it right the JBLs and the Linn DS (Klimax and maybe as well Akurate) used together create a ground loop. Would the switch on the Superkikkin solve the issue if a Linn DS and an LP12 are connected at least for the LP playback meaning when switched to the LP input?
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Re: Pre-amplifiers/streamers for my newly acquired Tundra 2.2 Tarandus.

Post by Azazello »

lejonklou wrote: 2023-03-02 15:07
matthias wrote: 2023-03-02 07:36
lejonklou wrote: 2023-03-01 21:18 That’s why Superkikkin has two inputs.
I assume there is no input switch similar to Boazu?
No, it’s a mechanical switch on Superkikkin.
Is that better that no switch..? s
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Re: Pre-amplifiers/streamers for my newly acquired Tundra 2.2 Tarandus.

Post by Defender »

there might be advantages and disadvantages to both (no free lunch)
with switch:
+you are not hearing the noise of the other component if there is any significant difference
-might influence musicality - however every other pre amp has to switch inputs either by an electronic switch or by a mechanical relais

without switch:
+no influence on musicality
-you might hear the other component - here I speak mainly about noise

thats my understanding but I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong and I am pretty sure there are more topics which influence the decision
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Re: Pre-amplifiers/streamers for my newly acquired Tundra 2.2 Tarandus.

Post by matthias »

Azazello wrote: 2023-03-13 21:44
lejonklou wrote: 2023-03-02 15:07
matthias wrote: 2023-03-02 07:36 I assume there is no input switch similar to Boazu?
No, it’s a mechanical switch on Superkikkin.
Is that better that no switch..? s
Maybe Fredrik can shed some light on his design decision?
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Re: Pre-amplifiers/streamers for my newly acquired Tundra 2.2 Tarandus.

Post by ThomasOK »

Azazello wrote: 2023-03-13 21:44
lejonklou wrote: 2023-03-02 15:07
matthias wrote: 2023-03-02 07:36

I assume there is no input switch similar to Boazu?
No, it’s a mechanical switch on Superkikkin.
Is that better that no switch..? s
I expect Fredrik will answer this but the easy answer is, YES. C'mon, this is Fredrik we are talking about. Would there be a switch if it would sound more musical without it?

To further explain I asked Fredrik some time back if he couldn't put three or four inputs on it and just use the no switching as on the Boazu. He informed me at the time that the input section of the Boazu was a different design and Superkikkin would have a switch with two inputs. A place for everything and everything in its place.
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Re: Pre-amplifiers/streamers for my newly acquired Tundra 2.2 Tarandus.

Post by Efraim roots »

ThomasOK wrote: 2023-03-14 17:53
Azazello wrote: 2023-03-13 21:44
lejonklou wrote: 2023-03-02 15:07
No, it’s a mechanical switch on Superkikkin.
Is that better that no switch..? s
I expect Fredrik will answer this but the easy answer is, YES. C'mon, this is Fredrik we are talking about. Would there be a switch if it would sound more musical without it?

To further explain I asked Fredrik some time back if he couldn't put three or four inputs on it and just use the no switching as on the Boazu. He informed me at the time that the input section of the Boazu was a different design and Superkikkin would have a switch with two inputs. A place for everything and everything in its place.
I just love the all inputs on all the time design in my personal system. I get so annoyed every time I try using something else than my Boazu and realize I need to shift inputs, very much unnecessary feature of a preamp in my system at least! Since my kids and others uses the system too, it's so easy to live with a coloured volume led and NO input selector.
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Re: Pre-amplifiers/streamers for my newly acquired Tundra 2.2 Tarandus.

Post by springwood64 »

Efraim roots wrote: 2023-03-16 12:01 I just love the all inputs on all the time design in my personal system [...] it's so easy to live with a coloured volume led and NO input selector.
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Re: Pre-amplifiers/streamers for my newly acquired Tundra 2.2 Tarandus.

Post by lejonklou »

Azazello wrote: 2023-03-13 21:44
lejonklou wrote: 2023-03-02 15:07
matthias wrote: 2023-03-02 07:36 I assume there is no input switch similar to Boazu?
No, it’s a mechanical switch on Superkikkin.
Is that better that no switch..? s
OK, so here's my take on this:

On Boazu there is, instead of switches on the inputs, what I call a mixer - it adds the four inputs together and plays the sum. I borrowed the idea from the legendary amp Au/Ra Z1, an odd and pretty great design by Jiri Janda, who is sadly no longer with us and his company Rational Audio seems to have disappeared as well. Z1 had a mixer on its inputs and you set the volume by turning a bent metal rod. I found it refreshingly simple to use.

The advantages of a mixer are:
+ It's convenient not to have to select inputs
+ With only one one source connected, the negative impact is zero so it sounds better than a switch
+ With two sources connected, it sounds about as good as a switch

The drawback of a mixer is:
- With many sources connected, the background noise of each starts to add up and will eventually impact musicality

On Sagatun there is a four-way electronic switch, so you need to select the input. Then I also added a single separate input that goes past the electronic switch (Single Source input) and a switch with which you can turn the four other inputs off.

The advantages of this 4+1 combination are:
+ If you have only one source, there's an optimal way to connect it (better than a switch)
+ If you have many sources, you connect them through an electronic switch that doesn't age or corrode
+ If you have many sources, there is no background noise that adds up and can impact musicality

The drawback of the 4+1 combination is:
- If you have many sources, you need to select which one to listen to (no convenience)

On Superkikkin, there are two inputs and not enough space for a third. The possible options for two inputs are: A mixer, an electronic switch, an electro-mechanical switch or a mechanical switch.

Initially I wanted to use the mixer, but there's a conflict in the design of Superkikkin that makes it inappropriate: Power consumption. That mixer adds power and will weigh down the power supply of Superkikkin, which makes it less musical. The same thing goes for an electronic or (in particular) electro-mechanical relay: The circuit of Superkikkin is optimally powered and preferably nothing more should be added that consumes power. The remaining option is a non-powered mechanical switch.

There also another reason to use a mechanical switch. It's probably common for people with two sources in their system to have one turntable and one digital source. Now if the phono preamp of the turntable source is Entity or SINGularity, those designs have a lot of gain. In contrast, my digital source Källa has lower gain. If these two sources (Entity/SINGularity and Källa) go into a mixer and you listen to the turntable, Källa adds almost no noise to the mix you're listening to. All fine there. But if you listen to Källa and turn up the volume, then the noise of Entity/SINGularity will become slightly noticeable. So for this particular combination, it's preferable to completely switch off the sound from the turntable. A Slipsik or Gaio phono stage has a gain that is closer to Källa, which makes them more suitable for the mixer used in Boazu (when combined with Källa).

The mechanical switch on Superkikkin needs to be manually flipped to listen to your second input. Assuming the second source is a turntable, you will still need to walk to the turntable, handle the record and put the stylus in the groove. Therefore I figured flipping a manual switch when playing vinyl wouldn't bother anyone.

The mechanical switch was chosen by listening to a lot of different models. Their impact on the music was surprisingly big and two models stood out from the rest: The cheapest one and the most expensive one. Both were really musical, but the cheapest one had a slightly odd tonal impact (sounded "grey") and as the contact points weren't gold plated and the housing not sealed, I strongly suspect that it would degrade with age. The most expensive one was sealed, gold plated and sounded very close to not having any switch at all. That's the one I chose.
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Re: Pre-amplifiers/streamers for my newly acquired Tundra 2.2 Tarandus.

Post by Azazello »

lejonklou wrote: 2023-03-16 14:07
Azazello wrote: 2023-03-13 21:44
lejonklou wrote: 2023-03-02 15:07
No, it’s a mechanical switch on Superkikkin.
Is that better that no switch..? s
OK, so here's my take on this:

On Boazu there is, instead of switches on the inputs, what I call a mixer - it adds the four inputs together and plays the sum. I borrowed the idea from the legendary amp Au/Ra Z1, an odd and pretty great design by Jiri Janda, who is sadly no longer with us and his company Rational Audio seems to have disappeared as well. Z1 had a mixer on its inputs and you set the volume by turning a bent metal rod. I found it refreshingly simple to use.

The advantages of a mixer are:
+ It's convenient not to have to select inputs
+ With only one one source connected, the negative impact is zero so it sounds better than a switch
+ With two sources connected, it sounds about as good as a switch

The drawback of a mixer is:
- With many sources connected, the background noise of each starts to add up and will eventually impact musicality

On Sagatun there is a four-way electronic switch, so you need to select the input. Then I also added a single separate input that goes past the electronic switch (Single Source input) and a switch with which you can turn the four other inputs off.

The advantages of this 4+1 combination are:
+ If you have only one source, there's an optimal way to connect it (better than a switch)
+ If you have many sources, you connect them through an electronic switch that doesn't age or corrode
+ If you have many sources, there is no background noise that adds up and can impact musicality

The drawback of the 4+1 combination is:
- If you have many sources, you need to select which one to listen to (no convenience)

On Superkikkin, there are two inputs and not enough space for a third. The possible options for two inputs are: A mixer, an electronic switch, an electro-mechanical switch or a mechanical switch.

Initially I wanted to use the mixer, but there's a conflict in the design of Superkikkin that makes it inappropriate: Power consumption. That mixer adds power and will weigh down the power supply of Superkikkin, which makes it less musical. The same thing goes for an electronic or (in particular) electro-mechanical relay: The circuit of Superkikkin is optimally powered and preferably nothing more should be added that consumes power. The remaining option is a non-powered mechanical switch.

There also another reason to use a mechanical switch. It's probably common for people with two sources in their system to have one turntable and one digital source. Now if the phono preamp of the turntable source is Entity or SINGularity, those designs have a lot of gain. In contrast, my digital source Källa has lower gain. If these two sources (Entity/SINGularity and Källa) go into a mixer and you listen to the turntable, Källa adds almost no noise to the mix you're listening to. All fine there. But if you listen to Källa and turn up the volume, then the noise of Entity/SINGularity will become slightly noticeable. So for this particular combination, it's preferable to completely switch off the sound from the turntable. A Slipsik or Gaio phono stage has a gain that is closer to Källa, which makes them more suitable for the mixer used in Boazu (when combined with Källa).

The mechanical switch on Superkikkin needs to be manually flipped to listen to your second input. Assuming the second source is a turntable, you will still need to walk to the turntable, handle the record and put the stylus in the groove. Therefore I figured flipping a manual switch when playing vinyl wouldn't bother anyone.

The mechanical switch was chosen by listening to a lot of different models. Their impact on the music was surprisingly big and two models stood out from the rest: The cheapest one and the most expensive one. Both were really musical, but the cheapest one had a slightly odd tonal impact (sounded "grey") and as the contact points weren't gold plated and the housing not sealed, I strongly suspect that it would degrade with age. The most expensive one was sealed, gold plated and sounded very close to not having any switch at all. That's the one I chose.
As usual, things I know little about turns out to be more complicated than I thought...
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Re: Pre-amplifiers/streamers for my newly acquired Tundra 2.2 Tarandus.

Post by Zee9 »

Reviving this old topic.

My statement about the WiiM mini with the dac sounding better than the mdsm/3 as a streamer preamp was not completely correct. After many comparisons I realized that the mdsm/3 was more balanced and correct sounding. The WiiM mini does take you by surprise BUT the sound is different NOT better

Update to the situation:

The Selekt drives the akubariks better so it’s on the main system.

The mdsm/3 that was driving the tundra and Kans got sold last month.

I’m unfortunately back to the WiiM mini + Kairn (temporarily) for some odd reason the Kairn has to be at a much higher volume than the mdsm/3. No idea why.

A friend is sending me his akurate kontrol/0(d) to try out and should be here before the end of the month.

With present prices a kk/1 seems cheaper than a Sagatun and gives me the advantage of dual voltage should I move from the US.

The Kan II’s also got replaced by the Kabers as they got sold. I will say no other amp (including aktiv akurate Amps) make my Kabers sing the way a single tundra 2.2 does.
1. LP12/Selekt/5105/JMR Bliss Silver
2. WiiM/modi3+/TS 2.5/Kabers
3. Genki/Kairn/Majik-I/Kabers
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Re: Pre-amplifiers/streamers for my newly acquired Tundra 2.2 Tarandus.

Post by Zee9 »

Update:

the 2010 Akurate Kontrol arrived and was dead on arrival. after removing the cover and heating up the PS with a hair dryer it came back to life and stayed on as long as plugged in. even in standby. when i moved it to the bedroom. i had to redo the whole hair dryer process which tells me that the PS is on its way out.

it does sound way better than the Kairn and i love the fact that i can plug the Wii mini via optical directly into the akurate kontrol/0(d) im waiting to see if i can find a replacement PS for this amp. im aware that it can be upgraded to Utopik but that's just stupid money. i can buy a KK for that money.

HAS ANYONE TRIED THE LATEST VERSION AKURATE KONTROL? (i believe it looks just like an adsm/3)

Although its newer im not interested in a dryer or a less engaging sound. i know i should just be saving up for a saga tun stereo but there are hardly any on the market in US spec and when they do come its at very high prices.
1. LP12/Selekt/5105/JMR Bliss Silver
2. WiiM/modi3+/TS 2.5/Kabers
3. Genki/Kairn/Majik-I/Kabers
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Re: Pre-amplifiers/streamers for my newly acquired Tundra 2.2 Tarandus.

Post by Matteo »

The ADSM/3 digitalizes all inputs, including analogue and phono inputs
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Re: Pre-amplifiers/streamers for my newly acquired Tundra 2.2 Tarandus.

Post by Tendaberry »

Matteo wrote: 2023-11-01 22:21 The ADSM/3 digitalizes all inputs, including analogue and phono inputs
Yes, but not the Akurate Kontrol
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Re: Pre-amplifiers/streamers for my newly acquired Tundra 2.2 Tarandus.

Post by Charlie1 »

Zee9 wrote: 2023-11-01 16:48 HAS ANYONE TRIED THE LATEST VERSION AKURATE KONTROL? (i believe it looks just like an adsm/3)
Just checking but I'm sure you know Linn ceased production of all pre-amps many years ago. Just cos you wrote 'LATEST' that's all, as if it were a current product.

I think David Neel of this forum had an Akurate Kontrol so you could PM him. Not sure if it was in the final Akurate-style casework - could have been the previous 'AV' style.
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Re: Pre-amplifiers/streamers for my newly acquired Tundra 2.2 Tarandus.

Post by anthony »

Zee9 wrote: 2023-11-01 16:48 Update:

the 2010 Akurate Kontrol arrived and was dead on arrival. after removing the cover and heating up the PS with a hair dryer it came back to life and stayed on as long as plugged in. even in standby. when i moved it to the bedroom. i had to redo the whole hair dryer process which tells me that the PS is on its way out.

it does sound way better than the Kairn and i love the fact that i can plug the Wii mini via optical directly into the akurate kontrol/0(d) im waiting to see if i can find a replacement PS for this amp. im aware that it can be upgraded to Utopik but that's just stupid money. i can buy a KK for that money.

HAS ANYONE TRIED THE LATEST VERSION AKURATE KONTROL? (i believe it looks just like an adsm/3)

Although its newer im not interested in a dryer or a less engaging sound. i know i should just be saving up for a saga tun stereo but there are hardly any on the market in US spec and when they do come its at very high prices.
Yes I have heard both, and preferred ak1, which I was told was essentially based on the old kk board, I have never confirmed that.
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Re: Pre-amplifiers/streamers for my newly acquired Tundra 2.2 Tarandus.

Post by Zee9 »

Charlie1 wrote: 2023-11-02 13:24
Zee9 wrote: 2023-11-01 16:48 HAS ANYONE TRIED THE LATEST VERSION AKURATE KONTROL? (i believe it looks just like an adsm/3)
Just checking but I'm sure you know Linn ceased production of all pre-amps many years ago. Just cos you wrote 'LATEST' that's all, as if it were a current product.

I think David Neel of this forum had an Akurate Kontrol so you could PM him. Not sure if it was in the final Akurate-style casework - could have been the previous 'AV' style.
By latest I meant the AK/1 which has the same casework as the adsm/3.
1. LP12/Selekt/5105/JMR Bliss Silver
2. WiiM/modi3+/TS 2.5/Kabers
3. Genki/Kairn/Majik-I/Kabers
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Re: Pre-amplifiers/streamers for my newly acquired Tundra 2.2 Tarandus.

Post by Charlie1 »

Gotcha - I thought that was most likely the case but wasn't 100% sure
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Re: Pre-amplifiers/streamers for my newly acquired Tundra 2.2 Tarandus.

Post by u252agz »

The AK/1 was a good preamp and in a different league to my Kolektor. A huge improvement.

I used it with KDS/1 / LP12 majik and a Tundra stereo and Ninkas/242s - a nice musical system.

I suspect if you can find a good one - you would be quite satisfied.
Kalla/Sag M/Tun M3/242/LP12/Slip7

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Re: Pre-amplifiers/streamers for my newly acquired Tundra 2.2 Tarandus.

Post by Zee9 »

Now that the main system has also gone from exakt integrated to a passive system with a tundra 2.5 + Kabers the hunt for a good preamp is again on my mind.

Has anyone tried non Linn preamps with a tundra. I know a sagatun would be most people choice but it seems like there are non in the used market and also none in production at the moment.

I wish I knew someone in the nyc area where I could hear the sagatun but that seems like a far fetched story as well.
1. LP12/Selekt/5105/JMR Bliss Silver
2. WiiM/modi3+/TS 2.5/Kabers
3. Genki/Kairn/Majik-I/Kabers
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Re: Pre-amplifiers/streamers for my newly acquired Tundra 2.2 Tarandus.

Post by Sopper »

(super) kikkin?
KÄLLA > Sagatun Mono 1.7 > Tundra Mono 3.0 > Graham LS8/1F
Cables: Trivium Audio Cables
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Re: Pre-amplifiers/streamers for my newly acquired Tundra 2.2 Tarandus.

Post by Zee9 »

Forgot to mention that I need at least 3 inputs hence kikkin and SK are not possible.
Sopper wrote: 2024-05-18 15:24(super) kikkin?
1. LP12/Selekt/5105/JMR Bliss Silver
2. WiiM/modi3+/TS 2.5/Kabers
3. Genki/Kairn/Majik-I/Kabers
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Re: Pre-amplifiers/streamers for my newly acquired Tundra 2.2 Tarandus.

Post by Sopper »

Hmmmz…. You could start with a Linn Wakonda (cheap) but very good and will outperform any digital volume preamp
KÄLLA > Sagatun Mono 1.7 > Tundra Mono 3.0 > Graham LS8/1F
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Re: Pre-amplifiers/streamers for my newly acquired Tundra 2.2 Tarandus.

Post by Tendaberry »

Or even better: a Klimax Kontrol
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