Speaker Choices for Lejonklou amplifiers…?

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Zee9
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Speaker Choices for Lejonklou amplifiers…?

Post by Zee9 »

That day finally came where we had to pack up our trusty Akubariks and they were delivered to the buyers apt.

This was a sale to free up some cash and we decided to revert back to a passive setup. The main system in our living room also caters to watching television and hence I was hoping for some guidance.

1. Selekt dsm as a streamer (probably to be sold soon as were still trying to downsize)
2. LP12 (a little above the selekt level)
3. Akurate Kontrol/0 (the toslink input helps with the TV connection) The LP12 also sounds much more fun via the Akurate Kontrol than into the selekt (if you are using an external phono stage)
4. Tundra 2.5 stereo
5. Early version Kabers with my favorite d20-lp2 tweeters.
6. RELt7i - still to be connected in the system once we have decided if we want to move from Kabers.

So the Akubariks really spoilt us with its detail and big sound. As much as we love our Kabers we’ve been wondering about our choices. I created a list of some speakers that I’m thinking about but we need to avoid spending too much as the goal is still to free up some cash as our doggie has gotten diagnosed with cancer and we might need those funds in the near future.

If anyone has had first hand experience with any of these speakers (we below) or would like to suggest others id love to hear your thoughts. Our main concern is how good a synergy would be with the speakers and Lejonklou amplification. We’re looking for more detail and a bigger sound than the Kabers. We’re still very happy with the Kabers and will continue to live with them till we find something we like.

We are mainly looking for floor standers but there are two bookshelves in the list.

Preloved Speakers we’re interested in:
1. ProAc speakers (floor standers like dt8)
2. Linn Miso’s
3. Linn Akudorik passive
4. Linn Akubarik passive
5. Kudos 707
6. Kudos 505
7. Amphion Argon 7ls
8. Amphion K3

Thanks again.

A photo to give you an idea of the space
1. LP12/Selekt/AK/0(d)/TS 2.5/kabers+RelT7i
2. WiiM/AK/1(d)/TS 2.2/Kan II
3. Genki/Kairn/5105/Kabers
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springwood64
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Re: Speaker Choices for Lejonklou amplifiers…?

Post by springwood64 »

There's a Källa for sale on eBay. I don't know how that compares to the resale value of your Selekt, but perhaps could help. The Selekt classic I auditioned was less enjoyable than my Hakai and the Källa is much better than my Hakai.

I have no experience with the speakers you list. However, some of those on your list have high second hand values. In your position I would also consider Linn 242s, based solely on comments in this forum, not first hand experience. I think they can be had for £1600 or less, so could be v good value.

With less spent on speakers, I'd also consider upgrading the AK. I use a £15 TOSLINK to RCA DAC for the TV, which allowed me freedom to choose the best analogue amp I could afford.

You could use a Lejonklou pre instead of the AK. It will cost about £2k more but you can save a lot on the speaker, and it'll sound much more musical.

Source first 😀, better value.
Pete

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Re: Speaker Choices for Lejonklou amplifiers…?

Post by Tendaberry »

A very good friend has the Kudos 505's and is very happy with them. Currently driven by a Klimax Organik Exaktbox and 2 Klimax Twins. But he has also tried them passive with just one Twin and he also found that very good. So I would definititely not discard them, even if they aren't floorstanders. The 707's are likely to be better, but also much more costly.
The passive Akubariks are a good choice, if you can find them. I'm certainly happy with mine.
A speaker brand that I would recommend you checking out, is the French brand Apertura. Their model Edena Evolution has impressed me a lot on various occasions and they are very easy to drive and just 2-way. I think they could be a perfect match a stereo Tundra. The model above them in the range is the Adamante and they are superb, I'd trade my Akubariks for them anytime, a bit more costly though. All Aperturas have superb finish.
Then of course you have the various Graham speakers, my favourites are 5/5 and 5/5f, but Marco (the importer here) also likes the 8/1f.
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Re: Speaker Choices for Lejonklou amplifiers…?

Post by Spannko »

Hi Zee9,
Your LP12 is an excellent source, and as you’ve discovered, bettering it digitally is difficult and expensive. As Pete has already suggested, the only streamer which plays music like an LP12 is the Källa. Do you want to be spending 4-6k on another source? There’s also the option of selling your LP12 and replacing it with a Källa 😮😮😮. For me, I’d say a Klimax LP12 is slightly better than a Källa on well recorded and mastered music, but when we get down to middle range LP12’s, I’d rather have a Källa: I find it more musical, and the choice of music on Spotify is priceless (well, actually, 9.99/month!). Having said that, having excellent analog & digital sources gives you the best of both worlds. Only you can decide 😊

You’ve got a great amp, so no problems there. If you sell your Selekt you’ll need a pre-amp and a used Lejonklou is the obvious choice.

Now to the most difficult and contentious subject: loudspeakers! I honestly don’t know of one loudspeaker I can wholeheartedly recommend*. Even the very best are only good in some respects, but they’re not so good in others. Compromises have to be made, and only you can decide what you’re comfortable with.

* Actually , there is one loudspeaker I’m happy to give a blanket recommendation to, and that’s the JBL 308 mk1 actives. They’re as musical as any of the speakers you list, and are available for about 300, used.

Selling everything and buying a Källa/pre/308 mk1 would free up a huge amount of cash and give you a better system into the bargain!
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Re: Speaker Choices for Lejonklou amplifiers…?

Post by Zee9 »

Getting a stereo sagatun is a smart idea and using a cheap dac for the TV. The bedroom uses a Schiit Modi 3+ and I can surely see how that works with the TV into an analog input. The Kalla as good as it is (I haven’t heard it yet but a dear friend can’t stop praising it) would mean a big outlay of funds at the moment so that will have to wait.

Pertaining to 242’s. We hade Mk1’s before the Akubariks and I didn’t like them at all. It sounded too clinical to my ears. We tried this passive single amped, bi-amped, aktiv and even exakt (exaktbox10, non K) with Akurate amps but were never happy.

A local fellow member has a pair of Mk2’s for sale with the upgraded bases and he used to run them with TM 2.2’as and a KK/1 but wasn’t happy and sold the amps and moved to JBL 708’s. If he wasn’t happy with the monos then I wonder how much a stereo tundra 2.5 would bring. Luckily he’s local enough for me to take the stereo tundra to him for a demo.

I should have stated that all the speakers that id consider would only be pre loved and if the selekt does not sell I won’t have that much of a budget for the speakers.

After yesterday’s evening session i’ll be adding the relt7i to the main system but have to wait till the AK/0 is fixed as the selekt does not have a dedicated sub out or a second line out. The Akurate Kontrol/0 is on its way for repair with the known Dynamik startup issues (resolved by the hair dryer trick).

I don’t think I can connect the sub to the tundra via rca as I think it’s full volume at the daisy chain line out. The rel also uses one rca for low level input. (maybe I’m wrong)
1. LP12/Selekt/AK/0(d)/TS 2.5/kabers+RelT7i
2. WiiM/AK/1(d)/TS 2.2/Kan II
3. Genki/Kairn/5105/Kabers
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Re: Speaker Choices for Lejonklou amplifiers…?

Post by Zee9 »

After looking at the m109 modification and it also being possible to the majik Isobarik speakers I’m going to look out for a pair.

I wonder if anyone is using these speakers with Lejonklou amplification. Id love to hear your thoughts.
1. LP12/Selekt/AK/0(d)/TS 2.5/kabers+RelT7i
2. WiiM/AK/1(d)/TS 2.2/Kan II
3. Genki/Kairn/5105/Kabers
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Re: Speaker Choices for Lejonklou amplifiers…?

Post by Charlie1 »

Hi Zee,
The only regular member I recall having done the mod (to 109s) is Matteo
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Re: Speaker Choices for Lejonklou amplifiers…?

Post by Freddy »

Zee9 wrote: 2024-03-23 16:15 Pertaining to 242’s. We hade Mk1’s before the Akubariks and I didn’t like them at all. It sounded too clinical to my ears. We tried this passive single amped, bi-amped, aktiv and even exakt (exaktbox10, non K) with Akurate amps but were never happy.
I can pretty much relate to this. I run A242 with Sagatun/Tundra stereo. They are somewhat analytical in their character on some recordings even with Lejonklou amps. They have a very neutral (cold) sound that lack base. That makes them a little boring to listen to in the long run. Maybe Tundra stereo lack a little power as well if you want to play loud. They play much nicer if you add a sub like A226. It change the way they sound, not only in the base but everything becomes so much better and more engaging. Everything comes to live. For me it changed everything and I went from want to sell to keep them and maybe thinking of upgrade to monos.

Another speaker brand that may be interesting is Harbeth? Not sure what model to go for though. Before the A226 I was about to try them but never got to do it.
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Re: Speaker Choices for Lejonklou amplifiers…?

Post by Charlie1 »

Freddy wrote: 2024-04-03 20:51 I can pretty much relate to this. I run A242 with Sagatun/Tundra stereo. They are somewhat analytical in their character on some recordings even with Lejonklou amps. They have a very neutral (cold) sound that lack base. That makes them a little boring to listen to in the long run. Maybe Tundra stereo lack a little power as well if you want to play loud. They play much nicer if you add a sub like A226. It change the way they sound, not only in the base but everything becomes so much better and more engaging. Everything comes to live. For me it changed everything and I went from want to sell to keep them and maybe thinking of upgrade to monos.
Interesting that the sub makes such an improvement.

I was also thinking that even the mk2 242 was voiced a long time ago now (2007?) back when Linn had the original KDS, and a top-spec LP12 would have come with Cirkus/Lingo 2/Akiva/Linto. That deck certainly had more warmth (i.e., analogue distortion) than a modern one which probably suited the 242.

Personally, I find Lejonklou amps fairly benign in terms of balance. Matching the LP12 with similar era Linn speakers has been quite successful. Can't to be too prescriptive though - my expectations have often been wrong.
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Re: Speaker Choices for Lejonklou amplifiers…?

Post by ThomasOK »

I think you need to be aware that the 242s were completely different animals depending on which version you listen to. Also, despite numbering to the contrary, there were actually three different versions of the 242. We got them into the store shortly after they came out and I can only describe the early versions as anemic. The bass was so week I took them apart to make sure they hadn't wired the two woofers out of phase (they hadn't). We sold those demos and bought a new pair that were also just called 242s but they actually had bass! This was a much better balanced speaker so I have to assume something was wrong with the crossover in the early models and was adjusted in later production. I never received any service information to recall or update the early ones and I don't know the serial number range that had the weak bass.

Later on they came out with the 242 mk II. For anyone really wanting to hear what the 242 was all about I would recommend listening to these. Linn had to change the 3K array as one of the drivers was no longer available (tweeter or super-tweeter, I'm not sure which). The head of speaker design also didn't like the other one so both were changed as part of upgrading the Artikulat 350 to the Klimax 350. At that time the 3K arrays that weren't good enough for the 350 went into the 242. However, after the change to the new 3K array I was informed that the tightened up QC on the arrays meant that they were all of the same quality. So the 242 mk II had the same 3K array as the Klimax 350, 340, 320. With the 242 mk II you get the benefit of the better 3K array and the improved bass, I believe with some crossover improvements as well. It is also best if they have the one piece base/plinth as this is a lot more solid than the early two piece bases that came on the earlier units. It made a better connection of the speaker to the floor and strengthened the base and the bass.
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Re: Speaker Choices for Lejonklou amplifiers…?

Post by Freddy »

Mine are mk1 version with upgraded stand. I think with the sub they are fantastic, and play very tuneful. They also have something called bass boost which is very underwhelming, it just make them sound worse. I wish I had two A226 but they are very rare on the second hand market.

I don't know how they will sound active, it should remove the crossover if that is the problem. It would be possible reasonably cheep with two 5125 and a lots of cables :) 10 speaker cables and 10 RCA s! What do you guys think of that? Is it really worth all that trouble instead of the Tundra stereo?
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Re: Speaker Choices for Lejonklou amplifiers…?

Post by Zee9 »

I have not heard the 242’s with a tundr but I enjoyed them most passive with a Klout. Mine were mk 1’s. From what I was told from someone close to Linn the 3k arrays with best tolerance were kept for the Klimax and the lesser tolerance ones were passed down the models. I was also told that mk 2 are after serial number 14000 or around there if I’m not mistaken. Mk 2 was created due to the mid range unavailability and the new midrange also needed a crossover modification that really improved the mk2’s

I tried the 242’s Aktiv with Akurate amps, also exakt ( without katalyst - the worst I had heard them) but never found them to be engaging. Nowhere close to exakt kat akubariks. I wouldn’t bother with Aktiv as the speakers already give out a lot of detail and if I ever was to try another pair it would be with 2 subs and maybe solos. Id love to hear them also with TM3’s. Still using at least 2 subs.

As I do more homework on future speakers I’m more keen to stay with a 2/3 way speaker. I’m no guru and I know demos are a must but it looks like they would have to be at least 4 ohms and maybe 90db sensitive although I think impedance may matter more (higher impedance) when pairing with Lejonklou amps.

Freddy wrote: 2024-04-04 21:18 Mine are mk1 version with upgraded stand. I think with the sub they are fantastic, and play very tuneful. They also have something called bass boost which is very underwhelming, it just make them sound worse. I wish I had two A226 but they are very rare on the second hand market.

I don't know how they will sound active, it should remove the crossover if that is the problem. It would be possible reasonably cheep with two 5125 and a lots of cables :) 10 speaker cables and 10 RCA s! What do you guys think of that? Is it really worth all that trouble instead of the Tundra stereo?
1. LP12/Selekt/AK/0(d)/TS 2.5/kabers+RelT7i
2. WiiM/AK/1(d)/TS 2.2/Kan II
3. Genki/Kairn/5105/Kabers
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Re: Speaker Choices for Lejonklou amplifiers…?

Post by anthony »

The 3k array is a different version in the mk2.
The better arrays were actually deployed on passive speakers as inconsistencies can be accounted for within aktiv circuits.
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Re: Speaker Choices for Lejonklou amplifiers…?

Post by Fred11 »

Hi there!
I just want to chip in that Grahams loudspeakers is a very nice match with Lejonklou having just gotten my hands on the Grahams Ls5/9f. It has an amazing musical, powerful and natural character. Never fatigue just very emotional music from my Källa - Boazu 1.3 - Ls5/9F.
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Re: Speaker Choices for Lejonklou amplifiers…?

Post by ThomasOK »

You might also want to check into the speakers from JM Reynaud out of France. I used their top unit, the Orfeo Grande, at the Axpona Audio show last year and many felt we were making the most musical sound at the show. Fredrik and I were quite pleased with how the system was sounding once it settled in and Fredrik just wanted to keep playing music when it was time to shut down. One of the reviewers who gave a rave to the Boazu and Entity recently upped the ante with a Sagatun stereo 1.7 and Tundra Mono 3s. He also recently got the JMR Orfeo Grande and tells me that he has never been happier with an audio system than he is with this one.

A couple of my dealers also feel that the lineup is very musical and a very good fit with Lejonklou electronics. They have a number of models and one that has been called out as particularly good for the money is the Bliss Jubilee which runs just $3500 with the highly recommended stands. It is as biggish 2 way system that appears to punch well above its weight. I haven't heard it yet but a friend of mine who was at Axpona and quite liked the Orfeo Grande just ordered a pair of them for his Klimax LP12/Lejonklou Monos system. I'm looking forward to hearing them soon.

Actually the Bliss Jubilee will also be featured with Källa, Boazu and Entity in the Stereo Haven room at the Axpona show the end of next week. I'll be visiting the show just for Saturday and look forward to visiting with them. Their room is 624.

Here is the JMR website:
https://www.jm-reynaud.com/en/
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Re: Speaker Choices for Lejonklou amplifiers…?

Post by Zee9 »

I’m not sure about this so I thought it’s best to ask. Speakers usually mention a nominal
Impedance and a minimum impedance. I know most Lejonklou amps are rated at 4 ohms and speakers that drop low would put more stress on the amps. Which is the number to worry about. Nominal or minimum impedance when reading up on possible speakers for homework?
1. LP12/Selekt/AK/0(d)/TS 2.5/kabers+RelT7i
2. WiiM/AK/1(d)/TS 2.2/Kan II
3. Genki/Kairn/5105/Kabers
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Re: Speaker Choices for Lejonklou amplifiers…?

Post by Tendaberry »

The minimum impedance is the one to worry about, especially in the bass. The Aperturas are very easy to drive and have a hight sensitivity btw.
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Re: Speaker Choices for Lejonklou amplifiers…?

Post by Zee9 »

I thought so but thanks for confirming that. Does that mean anything below 4 ohms for minimum impedance is not a good match for Lejonklou amplifiers? Or do we have some levy (eg 3.2 ohms just to pick a number)
1. LP12/Selekt/AK/0(d)/TS 2.5/kabers+RelT7i
2. WiiM/AK/1(d)/TS 2.2/Kan II
3. Genki/Kairn/5105/Kabers
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Re: Speaker Choices for Lejonklou amplifiers…?

Post by Spannko »

I’d be wary of any conventional loudspeaker with a low minimum impedance. Given that most drive units have an impedance above about 6Ω, a low loudspeaker impedance is likely due to an overly complex crossover attempting to compensate for shortcomings in the combination of drive units and trying to force them into producing a flattish frequency response. The downside is that in doing so, the phase, transient response, harmonic integrity and consequently the speakers ability to reproduce music coherently is severely compromised.
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Re: Speaker Choices for Lejonklou amplifiers…?

Post by lejonklou »

There is no specific low limit impedance for my amplifiers. The design of the output stage is such that it's extremely resilient to difficult loads, such as low impedance or phase shifts.

If you use a loudspeaker with very low impedance, the only thing that can happen is that you can't play as loud.

Here's a very rough guide for how to think:
An impedance of 6 ohms will maximize how loud you can play with my amplifiers.
Higher than 6 ohms and the amp will first run out of voltage when you crank it up.
Lower than 6 ohms and the amp will first run out of current when you crank it up.

But the impedance figure for a loudspeaker is so simplified that it's almost pointless:
The impedance varies with frequency. It's a curve with wild swings, plus another curve of the phase between voltage and current.
The impedance doesn't say anything about the musical qualities of the loudspeaker (but the curves can reveal its design).

And:
The sensitivity number says a lot more about how loud you can play. Say one speaker has an average sensitivity of 84 dB/1W/1m and another has 94. The difference between them is 10 dB, that's ten clicks louder on the preamp, like going from green to yellow, for the same amount of power from the amplifier.

Now imagine you're cranking it up to where the amp starts clipping. The speaker rated 94 is now playing ten steps louder than the one rated 84.
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