Preamp to match Tundra

[matthias]

It would be nice to know the auxilary equipment used (besides the speakers)!

Yes, was the Kontrol the latest spec(new board and Dynamik)?
KR
Matt

[lejonklou]

It would be nice to know the auxilary equipment used (besides the speakers)!

My maxed out LP12 with Adikt
Experimental phono stage
Preamp prototype
Tundra Mono
2.38 m K200 (my 2.48 are temporarily away)
Linn Akurate 212 on 109 stands
Old Linn silvers and Harmoni rack (Mimer/Tor)

Yes, was the Kontrol the latest spec(new board and Dynamik)?

No, this is an original KK. I have not yet compared my prototype to the latest KK/2. But I know several who have a latest spec KK, so it will be done soon.

In the meantime, I have lots of details left to tune.

[matthias]

No, this is an original KK. I have not yet compared my prototype to the latest KK/2. But I know several who have a latest spec KK, so it will be done soon.
In the meantime, I have lots of details left to tune.

After tuning I am sure the outcome will be the same with the KK/2 as with original KK.
KR
Matt

[matthias]

Experimental phono stage

BTW,
if there is a wish list for the phono stage I would like the have one with 54dB Gain for my EMT MC.
KR
Matt

[lejonklou]

if there is a wish list for the phono stage I would like the have one with 54dB Gain for my EMT MC.

You can always wish but I may not be able to grant it. Gain is usually dictated by the design and can't be altered without consequences.

In any case, there is no new standalone phono stage on the horizon and I doubt there will be one inside the preamp, because it's difficult to integrate without slight compromises to sound quality.

[Charlie1]

The performance with the prototype (and A212!) is without a doubt the best sounding system I have ever heard. I want to hear it again, but with Klångedang!

Great to hear it's performing so well. Shame I am not in the market for a better pre amp, otherwise I'd be keen to compare to KK - I need Urika first

[Linntek]

... and I doubt there will be one inside the preamp, because it's difficult to integrate without slight compromises to sound quality.

Interesting question. I once asked my dealer about pre/power combo vs integrated (pretek/power/intek). He said "you will not need a cable..." With the integrated solution you will have shorter signal paths and you take cable/plugs and a lot of other stuff out of the equation. Something will be added but overall one could argue for a well integrated solution.
There must be pros and cons to some extend and which way it will point I dont know.

[lejonklou]

... There must be pros and cons to some extend and which way it will point I dont know.

You're right, there are pros and cons. The only way is to try it in practice. And what one is able to accomplish in practice changes over time. So one needs to try it again. There is no final answer to this question.

[Ozzzy189]

How far away from a finished product do you think you are fredrik? Six months?

[lejonklou]

How far away from a finished product do you think you are fredrik? Six months?

Sorry, but I don't know. It depends on how smooth things go. Lots of interesting things can happen when making it ready for production.

[Ozzzy189]

Very very exciting times ahead! Good luck, I'm sure it'll be a stunner.

[Sonett]

You're right, there are pros and cons. The only way is to try it in practice. And what one is able to accomplish in practice changes over time. So one needs to try it again. There is no final answer to this question.

To illustrate what Mr. L. said (not that it's necessary), is the following list from olden times with historical msrp (rrp) prices (In US dollars, then. To translate to today multiply by 2 to 3 for current models if available):


Brand X 30 w/ch int. 4 inputs incl. MM and tape $300
" 50 w/ch int. 5 inputs incl. MM/MC and tape $400
" Pre-amp 5 inputs incl. MM and tape $250
" Pre-amp 7 inputs incl. MM/MC and 2 tape $400
" 50 w/ch power amp $300
" 100 w/ch power amp $500
" 70 w/ch int. 7 inputs incl. MM/MC and 2 tape $600

Brand Y 35 w/ch int. 4 inputs incl. MM and tape $450
" 40 w/ch int. 4 inputs incl. MM/MC and tape $550

Linn Intek 50 w/ch int. 6 inputs incl. MM/MC and 2 tape $1200


Data from personal bubble memory, which can experience erratic volatility.

The Brand X products improved commensurately with price. The large integrated was bracketed in both price and performance by pre/power combinations. (The 2 pre-amps with the 50 watt power amp - source first strikes again.) The cheapest integrated was astounding, and was more tuneful than any receiver at any price up to $1500 which we had the opportunity to tunedem. More money bought more features, better sound, detail and driving ability, but not much more tune.

Brand Y was more tuneful, but was less happy with larger speakers or lower (4 ohm) impedances.

The Intek reconciled these differences and was better in all respects.

Apologies for the messy list columns. I had it all lined up real purdy like in both my text editor and again in the posting window (tabs, then spacing) to no success. Tried the "code" function too. Remedial posting class seems in order.

[lejonklou]

Time for a progress report.

Since Jajo and Azazello shared their impressions about the performance of the latest prototype, the question that keeps coming is "When is it ready?". I can't say exactly when, but here's where I am:

All main parts of the circuit and their power supplies are ready.
Some features, testing and production are remaining.

The programming is (elegantly) done by Linntek on this forum and we're currently smoothing the user interface to makes it easy to operate. In addition, there are many programmable parameters that affect sound quality and these are being tested, one by one and together in groups. Each of these hidden digital settings has a small impact on the music, but all combined they make a big difference.

I asked about connection features and got very good replies. Thank you!
Two people asked for a Unity Gain input. This will most likely be included as an optional setting for one of the inputs.
Three people asked for dual outputs. This is already in place.
Three people asked for a fixed level output (a tape out function). This has proven very problematic. Not because the fixed level output doesn't sound good - it really does. But because as soon as you connect anything (for instance a headphone amp) to it, the performance of the preamp suffers. A lot? No, but enough to make it unacceptable, as the main priority with this product is for it to be the best - without compromises.
I am currently trying other ways to implement a fixed level output.

[HIDDENSYSTEMS]

Sounds very exciting Fredrik. Tundra case?

[ThomasOK]

This is great news. Glad to hear that the main circuitry and power supplies are complete and performing as you wished - that is very promising. Also glad to hear that the Unity Gain will be a selectable option for one input as that is what I had hoped for when the question was raised.

Sorry to hear about the problems with doing a fixed output - I hope you find a way around it. This brings up a question: if you have dual variable outputs does plugging in a headphone amp into one harm the performance of the set driving the main amp? I certainly don't think the second output being variable would be an insurmountable problem for those who want to drive a headphone amp, or even a recording device. It would just require a bit more care.

I may be reading between the lines a bit but does the comment that Linntek and you are "smoothing the user interface" mean that this will have an alphanumeric digital display?

Also if you don't mind a few feature questions, are either of these features likely:

Balance control
Mono/Stereo switching

Thanks for the update, this is all good news and I am very hopeful.

[Ozzzy189]

Tundra case would look good and hopefully help keep costs down. Just a thought.
Thanks for the update.

[lejonklou]

Sounds very exciting Fredrik. Tundra case?

Yes, Tundra case.

[lejonklou]

Sorry to hear about the problems with doing a fixed output - I hope you find a way around it.

Thanks, I hope so too. It annoys me as such an output could be useful for future products.

The dual variable output is very robust and can drive several components without any trouble. A slight degradation can result, depending on how the receiving unit is designed (especially how the signal ground is connected). This is unfortunate but true for all HiFi components - the more things you have connected, the more degradation you are likely to get. Minimalistic systems have an advantage in this sense.

I may be reading between the lines a bit but does the comment that Linntek and you are "smoothing the user interface" mean that this will have an alphanumeric digital display?

No.

Also if you don't mind a few feature questions, are either of these features likely:

Balance control
Mono/Stereo switching

Balance control: No. It is really easy to implement, but when I was trying different ways to set the volume, one particular way was superior in terms of sound quality. This connection goes to both channels at the same time, which makes balance control impossible.

Mono/Stereo: No. Left and Right channels are completely separated in my preamp. The only way to turn them into Mono is to mix them. This would result in a serious musical degradation.

[ThomasOK]

Sorry to hear about the problems with doing a fixed output - I hope you find a way around it.

Thanks, I hope so too. It annoys me as such an output could be useful for future products.

The dual variable output is very robust and can drive several components without any trouble. A slight degradation can result, depending on how the receiving unit is designed (especially how the signal ground is connected). This is unfortunate but true for all HiFi components - the more things you have connected, the more degradation you are likely to get. Minimalistic systems have an advantage in this sense.

I may be reading between the lines a bit but does the comment that Linntek and you are "smoothing the user interface" mean that this will have an alphanumeric digital display?

No.

Also if you don't mind a few feature questions, are either of these features likely:

Balance control
Mono/Stereo switching

Balance control: No. It is really easy to implement, but when I was trying different ways to set the volume, one particular way was superior in terms of sound quality. This connection goes to both channels at the same time, which makes balance control impossible.

Mono/Stereo: No. Left and Right channels are completely separated in my preamp. The only way to turn them into Mono is to mix them. This would result in a serious musical degradation.

Interesting, it will be interesting to see how the user will make adjustments to the settings - if that is allowed.

While I would have liked the Mono/Stereo switching (it really helps old stereo records sound less goofy) it certainly isn't a big deal and the reasons for not including either it or a balance control (which I really never use) are both good ones. I was pretty sure from the layout of the circuit board that it was a true dual-mono design. I applaud the decisions to keep the musical performance the one guiding principle in the design.

Glad to hear that at least the dual variable outputs work well. As I said, you can still use a variable out with a headphone amp. The only real problem would be if both the preamp and the headphone amp used the same volume control remote codes - that would be a major hassle.

[mrco99]

Wouldn't it be possible to make each pre out switchable/selectable so if one pre out goes to the power amp and one to a headphone amp, both are controllable through the remote for their volume levels?

Great to hear about the progress being made.
Is it too soon to tell anything about price level or maybe just a rough indication?

[lejonklou]

Wouldn't it be possible to make each pre out switchable/selectable so if one pre out goes to the power amp and one to a headphone amp, both are controllable through the remote for their volume levels?

Yes, possible. But when the main goal is ultimate performance, things get tricky... Every detail inside the preamp affects the music. Some things almost nothing (but still a little), some things a lot. Switching the audio signal on and off is done at the inputs and while I spent months on making that part of the design as musical as possible (for instance, the input switches have their own ground planes and power regulation), it still does degrade the signal a little bit.

Adding another switch at the output results in another tiny degradation. If versatility was the main goal, this would be no problem. Now it's all about the Wow! when you hear it, so every bit of performance counts.

Great to hear about the progress being made.
Is it too soon to tell anything about price level or maybe just a rough indication?

The goal for price is as low as possible. I have learned not to set it until I know all the costs involved, including the manufacturing. I did that with Tundra and Tundra Mono as well: All other costs had been counted and the last one was added when the manufacturer had built two units according to the 35 page manual and gave me their price. As the manufacturing has many steps and is very time consuming, it has a big impact on the final price.

[mattias31]

Just to clarify, what decision did you take in regards to incorporating volume controls through DS interface (e.g. kinsky)? I gather by the discussion on RS232 above that it's been cut out and that other alternatives (E.g. by ethernet) are not viable options?

[lejonklou]

Just to clarify, what decision did you take in regards to incorporating volume controls through DS interface (e.g. kinsky)? I gather by the discussion on RS232 above that it's been cut out and that other alternatives (E.g. by ethernet) are not viable options?

My preamp will be controlled by remote control (infrared) and probably front buttons (working with them right now). No RS232 or Ethernet connections.

It will most likely be possible to control it from a computer/ipad etc by third party Ethernet-to-IR devices. I have seen them advertised, but not tried them yet.

[mattias31]

Ok, thanks, I fully appreciate that any compromises associated with incorporating RS232/ethernet control weren't acceptable. Having said that, I currently run the Lejonklou kikkin, and while I'm deeply impressed with the sound quality, the one annoyance is the lack of ds volume (don't need more inputs). Anyhow, I'll be much curious of seeing the final product and whether it can compete/beat the latest klimax as the initial reports indicate.

I'll have to look into those ethernet-to-IR devices. Any specific suggestions?

[lejonklou]

Thank you for your input, mattias31!

I'll have to look into those ethernet-to-IR devices. Any specific suggestions?

This is one: http://www.roomieremote.com

Please note that I haven't tried it. A year ago I saw another one, but I can't remember its name.