Preamp to match Tundra

macrotech2 · Post by **macrotech2** » 2013-12-04 13:28

Music Lover wrote: Please avoid Volume control by RS232 or other external systems. Likely to reduce quality as it does on KK

I'm confused. How can you tell it reduces quality on the KK?

Nisseman · Post by **Nisseman** » 2013-12-04 18:26

Of course, sound quality must come first.
But thats a given, since we are talking about Fredrik´s products.
;-)

ML, in what way does Volume Control via Ethernet degrade the sound?

tokenbrit · Post by **tokenbrit** » 2013-12-04 18:30

1. A Unity Gain input. This feature means that one input on the preamp will always be played at a fixed volume, regardless of the volume control setting. When selecting any other input, the volume setting is in effect. But as soon as the input with Unity Gain is selected, the volume setting is bypassed and the level of the output signal becomes equal to the level of the input signal. Hence the name Unity Gain. On Kikkin this level is the first orange, or 80.
> Is there a difference to fixing unity gain vs. selecting unity gain vs. settting the volume to 80? I'm not sure I would want an input fixed to unity gain, but I would like to know that I can set the preamp to 'behave' in a home theatre system. If selecting unity gain or setting volume to 80 achieves the same thing I don't know that I'd need anything other than 'first orange' as on the Kikkin - it's just a question of the user interface as to what's easiest to select, but no fixed inputs for me thanks.

2. A fixed level output. This feature means that there is a specific output on the preamp on which the volume setting has no effect. It will always play the input that is selected, on Unity Gain level.
> Correction: not sure that I'd use this; only 1. for home theatre.

3. Dual outputs. This means there are two sets of normal outputs, which play the input that is selected on the volume that is selected.
> not personally - would trust there was no impact on performance, and little to none on cost.

(4. control point volume control - no thanks!)

Post by **lejonklou** » 2013-12-04 19:35

macrotech2 wrote:
Music Lover wrote: Please avoid Volume control by RS232 or other external systems. Likely to reduce quality as it does on KK
I'm confused. How can you tell it reduces quality on the KK?

Simple:
Use a KDS and a KK with an RS232 cable in between them.
Make sure the system is well installed.
Play 10 seconds of a song. Repeat.
Disconnect the RS232 cable.
Play the song again.

I've done this on many systems and usually the owner doesn't want to reconnect the RS232 cable.

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2013-12-04 19:47

macrotech2 wrote:
Music Lover wrote: Please avoid Volume control by RS232 or other external systems. Likely to reduce quality as it does on KK
I'm confused. How can you tell it reduces quality on the KK?

I tried it. No way going back to RS232 cable

Freddy · Post by **Freddy** » 2013-12-05 09:31

I would like to wish a fixed output (tape out). It makes it possible to connect a head phone ampl and to rip LP:s if you would like to do that.

macrotech2 · Post by **macrotech2** » 2013-12-05 09:33

lejonklou wrote:
macrotech2 wrote:
Music Lover wrote: Please avoid Volume control by RS232 or other external systems. Likely to reduce quality as it does on KK
I'm confused. How can you tell it reduces quality on the KK?
Simple:
Use a KDS and a KK with an RS232 cable in between them.
Make sure the system is well installed.
Play 10 seconds of a song. Repeat.
Disconnect the RS232 cable.
Play the song again.

I've done this on many systems and usually the owner doesn't want to reconnect the RS232 cable.

Oh, I see. For some reason I was trying to work out how you'd removed the circuitry from the KK. It's still there with and without the RS232 cable connected. The KK might sound even better if the circuitry wasn't there at all, but we can't test that. I wonder if anyone has tried different RS232 cables?

Post by **lejonklou** » 2013-12-05 13:39

macrotech2 wrote:The KK might sound even better if the circuitry wasn't there at all, but we can't test that.

Unlikely, as if you set RS232 to DISABLED in KK:s settings, the KK performs worse.

Trying different RS232 cables sounds boring, as all you can hope to achieve is a little less degradation. And I think it's unlikely to matter much, it's the electrical connection between the units that does harm.

mrco99 · Post by **mrco99** » 2013-12-05 13:50

Interesting to hear that Fredrik.
Does this degradation also show itself with the Ethernet port?
For DS devices it is necessary, but the Akurate Kontrol/1 also has one, to allow firmware upgrades and control volume.

Does disabling digital volume control into standalone DS players also improve performance? I never really compared this, but do recall actually that at a Dutch forum someone claimed that even disabling the ethernet LED on the back made for an improvent.

Sorry if I´m drifting too much off-topic here...

macrotech2 · Post by **macrotech2** » 2013-12-05 13:53

lejonklou wrote:
macrotech2 wrote:The KK might sound even better if the circuitry wasn't there at all, but we can't test that.
Unlikely, as if you set RS232 to DISABLED in KK:s settings, the KK performs worse.

Trying different RS232 cables sounds boring, as all you can hope to achieve is a little less degradation. And I think it's unlikely to matter much, it's the electrical connection between the units that does harm.

Thanks Fredrik - that's very useful info I hadn't come across before.

Anyway, back to your preamp...

SaltyDog · Post by **SaltyDog** » 2013-12-06 16:16

Forgive me for asking now as I know the answer is here somewhere.

How does one use the KK KDS without the RS 232 connected for volume control?

Is it that the volume control through control points is lost and nothing else?

Daniel · Post by **Daniel** » 2013-12-06 16:45

SaltyDog wrote:Forgive me for asking now as I know the answer is here somewhere.

How does one use the KK KDS without the RS 232 connected for volume control?

Is it that the volume control through control points is lost and nothing else?

Use the remote for the KK volume.

As you say you cant use ie kinsky to change the volume without the RS 232, but you can select and play music.
Just plug in the cable whenever you want to change something in the KK setup via konfig.

SaltyDog · Post by **SaltyDog** » 2013-12-07 01:05

I am currently burning in my disconnected RS232.

Will report back. :)

SaltyDog · Post by **SaltyDog** » 2013-12-08 01:45

lejonklou wrote:
macrotech2 wrote:The KK might sound even better if the circuitry wasn't there at all, but we can't test that.
Unlikely, as if you set RS232 to DISABLED in KK:s settings, the KK performs worse.

Trying different RS232 cables sounds boring, as all you can hope to achieve is a little less degradation. And I think it's unlikely to matter much, it's the electrical connection between the units that does harm.

Do you mean disabling the RS232 in KDS settings? I am unaware of how to change this on the KK.

I disabled the RS232 setting on the KDS. The system sounds way worse. How can it be the KK's performance being affected if the cord is gone? With or without the cord the music is only coming through when KDS is set to RS232 - Klimax Kontrol. Is this even an issue with the preamp? Seems to me it's the DS that is performing worse.

I get a bigger difference in firmware versions than whether or not the RS232 is connected or removed. My boxes are in the basement so I can't hear the moment it is disconnected. Undecided on this.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2013-12-08 03:22

SaltyDog wrote:Do you mean disabling the RS232 in KDS settings? I am unaware of how to change this on the KK.

Tonight I had my first ever shootout between a Klimax Kontrol and my prototype preamp, together with Jajo. We played Swedish progg (John Holm), reggae (U-roy), blues (Jimmy Reed), country (George Jones), 80:s (Eurythmics and Donald Fagen) and some Evert Taube ('I'm leaving by early train, oh happy days are here again').
I'm still high from his and my impressions, and Jacob, confirming what I heard, just returned from an Exakt demo...

If you put your KK into standby (by pushing 'standby' on the front) and then press and hold it, you'll get into setup mode. Then press 'source +' or 'source -' until you reach the RS232 option. Select Enabled with Volume + or -.

SaltyDog wrote:How can it be the KK's performance being affected if the cord is gone?

The cord is an electrical connection that can potentially create ground loops, depending how it's executed.

Disabling the circuit affects the power consumption of the circuit, which affects perfomance.

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2013-12-08 05:30

Fredrik, I'm probably going to give you multiple answers as there is what I would use in the preamp and what I think customers would most want based on how I see current preamps being used.

For myself I really don't care about unity gain as I have separate stereo and theater systems. If I ever decided to combine my movie watching setup with my main listening system I would only do so if I had decided to just give up on surround sound and do everything stereo so I still wouldn't need unity gain. As to the outputs I would be more likely to use dual volume controlled outputs as I might yet add a subwoofer back into the stereo system if I find one I am happy with. Personally I can't get into headphone listening as a serious way to listen to music so I don't see myself using it that way and if I want to rip vinyl to digital I can go direct from the Urika.

For customer needs I feel this changes somewhat. Even for customers I don't think unity gain is a priority as very few of our customers use a preamp of this level in a shared stereo/surround system. In addition you can always set the volume for the desired input to 80 and then block the remote sensor when playing video. The outputs question, however, is more problematic. There has definitely been a desire on the part of some of our KK preamp users for a fixed output to drive a quality headphone amp so I do feel there is a need for a fixed output. While it would also be nice to have a second variable output for some using subwoofers, right now I feel that is less important but this could change. The whole subwoofer thing is a real mess right now as far as we are concerned. While we were happy with the REL ST and Britannia series subwoofers, the newer units are just not very good at all. Ever since Richard Lord retired and REL was bought by a US company the quality has suffered. With the discontinuation of the Studio and Stentor, closing down the factory in Wales, the design work being done in the US and the manufacturing moved to China these subs are just not in the same leave as their predecessors and not worth it anymore. We have also never been that happy with the Linn subs and I still haven't been able to get premium performance out of the K345. Also since the Linn subs have passthrough capability, a second output on the pre really isn't necessary (although still desirable) and REL subs hook up to the speaker outputs anyway.

So, In summation, I don't think a fixed unity gain input would be a good idea and the fourth normal input would be more handy for myself and others. On outputs I would more likely have use for a second variable but I think more customers would want a fixed output.

In a perfect world it would be best if one of the inputs could be made either unity gain or normal through a setup command as Linn and Arcam do on most units. It would also be ideal if the second output could be switched between fixed and variable settings. Whether this is possible within the scope of your circuit design or whether it could be accomplished without significant musical degradation is a question only you can answer. But it sure would be nice. Also as I'm sure I mentioned to you somewhere along the line I think it would be great if a max volume level could be set as Linn allows - especially as a way to limit the chance of overdriving the Tundra amps.

Daniel · Post by **Daniel** » 2013-12-08 13:21

lejonklou wrote: Tonight I had my first ever shootout between a Klimax Kontrol and my prototype preamp, together with Jajo. We played Swedish progg (John Holm), reggae (U-roy), blues (Jimmy Reed), country (George Jones), 80:s (Eurythmics and Donald Fagen) and some Evert Taube ('I'm leaving by early train, oh happy days are here again').
I'm still high from his and my impressions, and Jacob, confirming what I heard, just returned from an Exakt demo...

Fredrik, Great news on the progress AND results!

hcl · Post by **hcl** » 2013-12-08 22:28

lejonklou wrote:Tonight I had my first ever shootout between a Klimax Kontrol and my prototype preamp, together with Jajo. We played Swedish progg (John Holm), reggae (U-roy), blues (Jimmy Reed), country (George Jones), 80:s (Eurythmics and Donald Fagen) and some Evert Taube ('I'm leaving by early train, oh happy days are here again').
I'm still high from his and my impressions, and Jacob, confirming what I heard, just returned from an Exakt demo...

Interesting. I can't help thinking that this sounds quite promising :-)

matthias · Post by **matthias** » 2013-12-08 22:50

lejonklou wrote:Tonight I had my first ever shootout between a Klimax Kontrol and my prototype preamp, together with Jajo. We played Swedish progg (John Holm), reggae (U-roy), blues (Jimmy Reed), country (George Jones), 80:s (Eurythmics and Donald Fagen) and some Evert Taube ('I'm leaving by early train, oh happy days are here again').
I'm still high from his and my impressions, and Jacob, confirming what I heard, just returned from an Exakt demo...

Fredrik,
very promising, indeed.

Jajo,
would you communicate your impressions about the preamp (and Exakt)?

KR

matthias

matthias · Post by **matthias** » 2013-12-08 23:09

Post moved to another thread.
KR
Matt

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2013-12-08 23:19

lejonklou wrote: If you put your KK into standby (by pushing 'standby' on the front) and then press and hold it, you'll get into setup mode. Then press 'source +' or 'source -' until you reach 'Product IR'. Select Enabled with Volume + or -

Guess you meant the "RS232 CONNECTION" and not "Product IR"

Post by **lejonklou** » 2013-12-09 11:52

Music Lover wrote:
lejonklou wrote: If you put your KK into standby (by pushing 'standby' on the front) and then press and hold it, you'll get into setup mode. Then press 'source +' or 'source -' until you reach 'Product IR'. Select Enabled with Volume + or -
Guess you meant the "RS232 CONNECTION" and not "Product IR"

Yes, of course. Thank you! I will edit my post at once.

jajo · Post by **jajo** » 2013-12-09 12:01

matthias wrote:Jajo,
would you communicate your impressions about the preamp (and Exakt)?

KR

matthias

Sure!

Although I was a bit disappointed to see that the A212s were connected instead of Klångedang (some speaker cable issue) I immediately noticed that the system was performing on a new level. It was simply hard to focus on anything else than the music, even from the other side of the apartment.

Fredrik played some great music that I had not heard before and I had to tell him a couple of times to continue playing the record when the song was over because I was excited to hear what would come next. I had a great time.

At some point, we decided to connect the Klimax Kontrol and compare with the prototype. Fredrik actually bought the KK from me a couple of years ago and it is a great performing unit (one of the best I have heard). Many of Fredrik's preamp prototypes, including the final version of Kikkin, has been defeated by this KK and I was very excited to hear the outcome of this test.

After connecting, Fredrik played the same track that we just heard on the prototype. First of all, I just could not believe that it was the same song playing. I actually asked Fredrik if it was the same track and when he nodded I just couldn't believe it. It was lacking so much musical information and it was boring. I knew the prototype was good, but this good? I had to ask Fredrik again if it was the same song and if everything was properly connected. And it was. We played another track and the joy and excitement was gone. I started thinking about when my bus leaves and I no longer felt that I wanted to hear "the next track too". Going back to the prototype made me laugh. I have never heard this difference before from a preamp.

On the bus home I had so much music in my head. I didn't even bother listening to my mp3-player which I usually do, because I didn't want to get rid of the music playing in my head. It is like when you had a great dinner and you can still taste it in your mouth a long time after.

The performance with the prototype (and A212!) is without a doubt the best sounding system I have ever heard. I want to hear it again, but with Klångedang!

The Linn Exakt system I heard a couple of weeks earlier sounded impressive but lacked all of the magic that Fredrik's system had. It was so uninspiring in comparison that I don't want to write about it.

/ Jacob (still impressed)

matthias · Post by **matthias** » 2013-12-09 12:37

jajo wrote: Going back to the prototype made me laugh. I have never heard this difference before from a preamp.
The performance with the prototype (and A212!) is without a doubt the best sounding system I have ever heard. I want to hear it again, but with Klångedang!

The Linn Exakt system I heard a couple of weeks earlier sounded impressive but lacked all of the magic that Fredrik's system had. It was so uninspiring in comparison that I don't want to write about it.

/ Jacob (still impressed)

Thank you Fredrik for this fantastic preamp and Jacob for sharing your impressions.
I had the same experiences with Exakt a few weeks ago.
KR
Matt

hcl · Post by **hcl** » 2013-12-09 13:29

jajo wrote:
matthias wrote:Jajo,
would you communicate your impressions about the preamp (and Exakt)?

KR

matthias
Sure!

Although I was a bit disappointed to see that the A212s were connected instead of Klångedang (some speaker cable issue) I immediately noticed that the system was performing on a new level. It was simply hard to focus on anything else than the music, even from the other side of the apartment.

Fredrik played some great music that I had not heard before and I had to tell him a couple of times to continue playing the record when the song was over because I was excited to hear what would come next. I had a great time.

At some point, we decided to connect the Klimax Kontrol and compare with the prototype. Fredrik actually bought the KK from me a couple of years ago and it is a great performing unit (one of the best I have heard). Many of Fredrik's preamp prototypes, including the final version of Kikkin, has been defeated by this KK and I was very excited to hear the outcome of this test.

After connecting, Fredrik played the same track that we just heard on the prototype. First of all, I just could not believe that it was the same song playing. I actually asked Fredrik if it was the same track and when he nodded I just couldn't believe it. It was lacking so much musical information and it was boring. I knew the prototype was good, but this good? I had to ask Fredrik again if it was the same song and if everything was properly connected. And it was. We played another track and the joy and excitement was gone. I started thinking about when my bus leaves and I no longer felt that I wanted to hear "the next track too". Going back to the prototype made me laugh. I have never heard this difference before from a preamp.

On the bus home I had so much music in my head. I didn't even bother listening to my mp3-player which I usually do, because I didn't want to get rid of the music playing in my head. It is like when you had a great dinner and you can still taste it in your mouth a long time after.

The performance with the prototype (and A212!) is without a doubt the best sounding system I have ever heard. I want to hear it again, but with Klångedang!

The Linn Exakt system I heard a couple of weeks earlier sounded impressive but lacked all of the magic that Fredrik's system had. It was so uninspiring in comparison that I don't want to write about it.

/ Jacob (still impressed)

It would be nice to know the auxilary equipment used (besides the speakers)!