anthony wrote:
Music Lover, I have owned many pairs of solos, and the last pair for 5 years. I now have dynamiked solos, and I find them much better.
It's difficult to describe improvement, hence comparing with the RELATIVE enhancements in other products. Just to get a better perspective on the improvement.
And the 5k outlay (upgrading Solos) surely going to offer more performance on the source/pre.
See, another relative observation ;-)
Or...242, 350 and Komri, all offer bigger performance differences.
Or Twin vs Tundra (that is quite big imho)
Maybe Linn was right after all, "we had difficulties developing a better PSU than we already have in Twin/Solo"
Anthony, have you compared your Solo/D with Tundra yet? Love to hear your thoughts.
Hi
Yes have compared, and the Solos are still better. As much as I rate Twins and Tundras, Solos are still special.
General consensus so far is that Tundra betters KCT/ud, and a KCT/d is again a lot more expensive let alone Solos.
For those with a smaller purse like me, I still would love to hear some comparasions between passive Tundra and active Majik amps with speakers as M109/M140/MIsos/A212/A242, or even Katan, Ninka, & Kabers. I think many start with one of these speakers in passive mode, with a natural tendency to grow into an active system with Majik or Akurate amps at best. Klimax level is then another level, and going 'back' to a passive system with a KCT is something that many are not willing to, also they have spend so much and for such a long time in getting their active system as it is by then.
Now that Tundra appears such a good value and performance, we may take a shortcut by not working us up through the active section, but simply stay passive with a Tundra.
I know there are supporters of both active and passive setups.
Some will favour a possible 2100/6100/M140 system, others a KCT/M140.
But a Tundra/M140 is quite a different price level compared to KCT/M140, so opens up a whole new set of possibilities like start just upgrading your speakers.
To stay with my example, I have heard an active MDSi/6100/M140 system, and it sounded very, very well. It seems very natural to start with a passive MDSi/M140 and add a 6100 to go active.
If you were to take this again a step higher in active mode, it will add quite some cost to do so. Klimax amps by then are not even on ones mind then, only to improve on the active system.
So some thoughts on these sytems, if any already heard and compared them, is highly appreciated.
Last edited by mrco99 on 2012-05-13 13:13, edited 1 time in total.
mrco99 wrote:
So some thoughts on these sytems, if any already heard and compared them, is highly appreciated.
I'm currently running katans active with KDS/1 direct and 4200/D.
But my tundra is on the way... :)
I will then have KDS/1 > Tundra > katans as my main system. My second system will then be mdsi > 4200/D > aktiv katans which will make for a good comparison (although A/B comparisons will be a touch hard as they will be 75 miles apart with a stretch of water in between!).
ADSM, Rega P3-24, 4200/D, aktiv Katans
MDS-I/D, 4100/D, aktiv Katans
Kiko
Sekrit DSM, 5110s
Well at least it's easier to set up than Aktiv 4200s! Shouldn't take more than 10 minutes.
I've been rather quiet about my Tundra lately - because I've been playing music non-stop! It's just fabulous.
I'm away until Monday night at my weekend place, putting the 4200/D in. Not bad for what is very much a part time system. I hope when I get back the tundra is waiting for me...
I have had my Tundra for a while and I find it truly awesome. I compared it with a pair of Solos and I found the Tundra better in musical terms. As I use 109s and the Solos I borrowed belongs to a friend using full range speakers I was really curious about the outcome in his system.
Nothing beats full range speakers when it comes to physical impact and slam. It took a while to get used to it but eventually we replaced the Solos with the Tundra. When the Tundra had played for a while the difference was obvious and clear. The character of the two amps differs and the Solos are more laid back and sounds a little softer, The Tundra rocks with a tremendous musicality and boogie factor. Everything just flows and as my friend said: “ It´s like bicycling downhill, it´s no drag!” We played a lot of music and ended up with volumes I usually don’t play and the little amp showed no sign of loosing the grip.
Switching back to the Solos was interesting and on some music my friend found them better but for me it was like more softening the edges on rough music.
I found the Tundra making all music interesting and bringing the soul of the music out. The Solos are still as good as always but for me they become less emotional.
The Solos are non Dynamiked but the best pair we found out of four when he was buying them many years ago. I would love to hear a pair of new Solos as they are reported to be a significant upgrade from old ones.
Well my tundra is here, unpacked and plugged in. And I have to say it looks very very good indeed - a great match for my black KDS/1.
But how does it sound? Well, I can't tell you yet. I've been running my katans aktiv for the past couple of years. To swap them between passive and active you remove a plate at the back by the terminals. When I took them off, I put the plates in the boxes for the aktiv cards, which in turn went in the box for the speakers. Which went into the loft - in my other house. And I'm not there until the weekend. I'm not sure I can bear the suspense......!!
Tried my Tundra today with B&W 804 Diamonds & Audiovector Si3 Avantgarde Arretes, plus a KDS/1 & KK/1. Both sounded absolutely fantastic. The Audiovectors have the edge though & I think I'm going to go for a pair.
The Tundra performed perfectly with both pairs. One thing I do notice from these demos, I find the Tundra needs probably an hour warm-up time. Comments on here previously have mentioned maybe half an hour. I deliberately gave it about 30 minutes warm-up today but it still didn't sound on-song until about another half hour in.
I have been living with my tundra for about a month. I used to drive my A242 active with a M611 and a A4200 amps. I was not really impressed at first and found that the bass were poor. After a week-end I found that the sound had improved . I also changed the original Linn straps and the bass improved a little. Frederik told me that my kikin 2 was probably not as good as the tundra and advied me to change it for a KK (which is too expensive for me at the moment). So I'll probably buy a second hand sub
maybe a B&W PV1 and wait the release of the matching Lejonklou preamp. May I add that I totally agree with all the people who say that Tundra is a fantastic amp. Thank you Frederik and congratulations.
I have recently updated my Kikkin 2.2 to a KK/1 and while I love the Kikkin and think it's as good, if not better, than an Akurate Kontrol, the KK/1 is simply fantastic, It's a very worthwhile upgrade.
Pol wrote:I have been living with my tundra for about a month. I used to drive my A242 active with a M611 and a A4200 amps.
Hi Pol,
Do you feel you have already gotten used to the different sound of not only the Tundra but also the passive vs active switch. Probably quite difficult to separate what comes from which, but I would be very interested if you can try to name the differences.
What made you decide to go for passive/Tundra instead of active/6100+4200 setup, which by no means sound bad at all (a highly desireable setup I should say). And did it so far live up to your expectations?
For me with Keltiks which are only to be driven active, there is no (financially) alternative than to go for a Tundra plus a different speaker.
But I am reluctant what to miss when going passive, so very curious about your findings.
Pol wrote:I have been living with my tundra for about a month. I used to drive my A242 active with a M611 and a A4200 amps. I was not really impressed at first and found that the bass were poor. After a week-end I found that the sound had improved . I also changed the original Linn straps and the bass improved a little. Frederik told me that my kikin 2 was probably not as good as the tundra and advied me to change it for a KK (which is too expensive for me at the moment). So I'll probably buy a second hand sub.
Sub seems a somewhat strange option to me, but I am not familiar using a sub myself, so perhaps missing something there.
I guess you have already re-optimized the position of your 242s since changing amp?
KK/1/D would certainly improve the bass, but it's an expensive potential 'fix'.
If you don't have them already, then an alternative 'cheaper' option is the upgraded 242 stands. Unlike a pre-amp upgrade, they obviously won't improve the input signal, but should help to better control the resulting bass problem. I've not compared them myself though, so not sure the extent of the improvement, particularly bass control.
Thanks for all your answers. First of all my system includes a unidisk 1.1D+
kikkin 2+tundra+akurate 4200. I use ecosse and Linn rca silver interconnect. I also have high quality power cords. I removed a few times my akurate 4200 . I think a sub could help as I used one many years ago when I had B&W 805 loudspeakers. The lack of bass is not a major issue and I think that the use of a new preamp (Lejonklou or KK1?) and a sub will
make me fully happy with my gear. I am nevetheless very happy because comparaired to my former system the sound is much clearer and more musical.
OK. The only other alternative that comes to mind, that ‘might’ be within budget and also address the Kikkin weak point, that you mentioned, is to sell both Unidisk and Kikkin and get ADSM and associated networking kit (and possibly a DVD player.) That’s provided you can live without CDs and are prepared to put up with the downsides of streaming (i.e. networking hassle.) You’d get Internet radio with the ADSM as well though.
Charlie1 wrote:OK. The only other alternative that comes to mind, that ‘might’ be within budget and also address the Kikkin weak point, that you mentioned, is to sell both Unidisk and Kikkin and get ADSM and associated networking kit (and possibly a DVD player.) That’s provided you can live without CDs and are prepared to put up with the downsides of streaming (i.e. networking hassle.) You’d get Internet radio with the ADSM as well though.
If you take the digital out from an Oppo DVD into a ADSM you would be surprised how good cd sounds, although , with a ds you probably would not play many cds.
anthony wrote:If you take the digital out from an Oppo DVD into a ADSM you would be surprised how good cd sounds, although , with a ds you probably would not play many cds.
242s really do need a kk1 though.
Cool. Is an AK/1 enough do you think?
I know you like the 242 stands, but do they tighten up the sound much?
Well, I'm finally up and running with my Tundra and the 4200/D has been packed off to weekend-system duties.
I've only been listening for about an hour but so far I simply love it. I wasn't really sure what to expect but so far...
System details: I am playing direct from KDS/1 to tundra to katans on katan stands, using Linn Silver interconnects and single wired with k400. Playing at a sensible volume - 62 on KDS.
Observations so far...
Detail. Just astounding. There is stuff going on I simply couldn't have imagined I was missing. This is spooky.
Imaging. I am getting a proper sense of depth as well as width and height. Perhaps my speakers aren't optimally set for this but it's not something I've easily noticed before.
Timing. Previously clunky phrases make sense.
Harshness. Nope, none of that.
Musicality. This is what it's all about. I've yet to listen to a track I haven't enjoyed more than ever before in my system.
It's early days and I'm sure there is more to come but so far I am super impressed. And this is with katans (which I rate very highly). I don't dare think what 109s or 212s would sound like!
ADSM, Rega P3-24, 4200/D, aktiv Katans
MDS-I/D, 4100/D, aktiv Katans
Kiko
Sekrit DSM, 5110s
I’ll just start off by saying the Tundra is an amazing power amp – very musical and very capable. I had hoped to report on the Tundra earlier but we ran into a little snag using it in North America. The relays in the switch-mode power supplies that choose between 120 Volts and 240 Volts had an interaction with some bass notes that didn’t allow normal power delivery in 120 Volt countries (Fredrik says this relay is out of the circuit in 240 Volt countries). Once I reported this to Fredrik he set about feverishly working on a fix. I wrote a bit of the story of this in the thread entitled New Topplate for LP12 where you can read a bit more of the story – maybe Fredrik will post a more technical explanation. In the end he found a fix that did not reduce the musical quality by bypassing the relay altogether for 120 Volt countries (and also 100 Volt like Japan). This means Tundra amps sold in North America will not be able to be plugged into high-voltage outlets – they will be low voltage only. However, Fredrik or I can reverse the relay bypass if someone is moving to a high-voltage country. Despite how musical the Tundra was from day one, and even though we’ve been going ahead and using it while waiting for the fix, I didn’t want to fully evaluate and report on the abilities of the Tundra until I had the final fix in place. That way I would be reporting on the amp as people will receive it here. As it turns out my impression (I could not do an A/B comparison to verify this) is that the Tundra is even more musical with the relay bypassed.
So with the update in place we went about listening to it at the store (I also did some listening at home too but as my main speakers have the amps built in I couldn’t fully evaluate the Tundra there). Most of the listening at the store was done through 242s (latest version) and Vienna Acoustics The Kiss speakers. The rest of the system at the store was an ADS/1, a few different fully loaded LP12s with either Urika or Uphorik phono stages, and a KK/1/D. All interconnects, speaker cables (single wire) and power cables were Linn except for the Tundra which was used with its own power cable.
To start off with we compared against the Klimax Chakra Twin 500 with Dynamik as many reports had held this as the fairly close competitor. We were surprised and pleased to find out that the Tundra was simply musically superior to the KCT/D. It was easier to hear what the musicians were playing, vocals had more meaning and emotion, everyone seemed to be playing better together as there was better flow and interaction of the instruments. A few of us at the store listened to the comparisons over a few days and everyone felt the Tundra to be the superior amp whether driving 242s or Vienna Kisses. Considering the US price of the Tundra is $4700 and the KCT/D is $11,000 this is a pretty auspicious start. One of the auditioners said that he had always felt that the KCT, while a very musical, clear and detailed amp, had somehow lost something of the magic he felt the Klout possessed. His comment was that the Tundra brought that magic back while actually improving on the clarity and musicality of the KCT/D. We all liked the Tundra so much that we just left it playing in our big room most of the time and I found myself getting into the streamed music coming out of the ADS/1 in a way I never did before. I didn’t want to do comparisons - I just wanted to listen until the end of the piece and then await with expectation what track the random setting would play next. From a vinyl man this is unusual indeed. One group of tracks started with Thanks to You by Boz Scaggs (the bass the Kisses put out with the Tundra actually had me exclaiming out loud “Holy S**t”), Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds by the Beatles, Cold, Cold Heart by Norah Jones, Please Bleed by Ben Harper and Let Your Loss be Your Lesson by Alison Krauss and Robert Plant. Each one was a delight and I found myself after store closing still listening. In particular Cold, Cold Heart is one of my favorites on vinyl and I almost felt like I was cheating on my LP12 enjoying the streamed version so much. ;-)
So the findings so far being so good I decided to hook up the Klimax Solos (non-Dynamik) and see how they compared. Since the Solos had not been connected up for about a week I hooked them up before leaving the store for the night leaving them on a continuous random feed so they would have all night to warm up. I left the Tundra disconnected but powered up so that it would at least be pretty well warmed up. The next day TJ and I sat down for some comparisons. We started out with Porcupine Tree’s Strip the Soul, a track that starts out with some potent bass playing that had caused a problem before the 120 Volt fix. We were cranking it pretty loud and it now sailed right through it. Here was our first surprise: we both felt that the Tundra was letting us hear more of the music with vocal inflections more natural and harmonics easier to hear. The Solos had a bit more bass power but not all that much, but they also sounded a little softer and more veiled. So then TJ played a Cowboy Junkies track from Acoustic Junk and we both found our preference reversed, indeed the things we found better about the Tundra on the first track we now found better about the Solos!? How confusing! TJ then put on a track by a very interesting cellist I forget the name of. She recorded an album of just her playing cello but with lots of overdubbing and doing things like tapping the cello to give drum sounds and playing the strings in unusual ways to come up with a wide range of different textures. Once again TJ and I felt the Solos let us hear more of what was happening musically. On a hunch I played Synchronocity II by The Police and again cranked it pretty loud. How about that? TJ and I both felt the Tundra had now swapped positions with the Solos again and was letting us hear the complex drumming and potent bass interactions more clearly and Sting’s voice just seemed more present and conveyed emotion better. It seems my hunch proved to be true. I remembered Fredrik’s comments that the Tundra played loud without the compression and coarseness many amps exhibit when stressed. From these comparisons it seems that the Tundra lets you hear more of what is going on musically when you are cranking a piece of music with a lot going on, whereas the Solos perform more musically when playing simpler pieces at a lower level. So overall I’d have to say a tie depending on what you are listening to and how loud. But there is no tie in value with the Tundra at $4700US and the Solos at over $25,000US a pair!
Considering the Solos are rated at 290 Watts a channel and the Tundra at 24 Watts a channel this is certainly a surprising finding. But it is really only the beginning of this surprise as I left out the other very interesting part of this listening session until now. During the comparison where we were running the amps pretty loud with some music from Porcupine Tree and The Police into The Kiss loudspeakers (4 Ohms) and the fans would come on in the Solos within the first two minutes of the tracks so they were obviously cranking pretty hard. The Lejonklou Tundra was playing at the same dB volume levels (measured via an SPL meter) as the Solos and was showing no strain! Indeed they still had a few dB of headroom left. This is not your typical 24 Watt amp, to say the least. Nobody I have played it for could believe the rating (which really has more to do with limitations in heat dissipation and FTC preconditioning rules than it has with the ability to drive speakers) and I found the Tundra able to play louder than I wanted to listen in this system. If ever there was a power amplifier that played much louder than the specs would suggest this is the one. If ever there was an amplifier that made power specs as obviously meaningless as we all know they are this is the one. I have also driven such easy loads as Linn SARAs to high levels with no difficulty at all. Indeed one of the different things about this amp is that, unlike many (maybe most) amps that start to sound coarse and compressed as the levels go up, the Tundra sounds uncompressed and at ease right up until the point you clip (which actually required a volume setting of 90! on the KK/1/D playing Synchronicity II by The Police – 89 was just fine). This is really extraordinary drive capability. I haven’t pulled the 242s back in the room since the fix to see how well they are driven to my typical volume freak levels but I certainly think they would handle most people’s needs with most reasonably efficient speakers (and even some difficult ones like SARAs and Kisses).
So overall I find the Tundra fully competitive with non-Dynamik Klimax Solos and that’s about as impressive a feat as I can imagine. Since I have read that two Tundras running one channel each are even a fair bit better I have to wonder if even Dynamik Solos have something to fear? TJ simply said that the Tundra is a remarkable amplifier, told me to give Fredrik his big thumbs up and felt the more than five to one price advantage of the Tundra says about all you have to say. What I have to say is that the Tundra is one of the great amps and one of the great audio bargains in my 34 year experience in the industry. My highest congratulations to Fredrik for a job exceedingly well done and easily beyond my expectations!
I personally wouldn't consider an AK/1 much of an upgrade over a Kikkin. I preferred my Kikkin 2.2 to an AK/1 - just more transparent and didn't add that 'smoothness' that the AK/1 has.
[edit] Great review ThomasOK! I did hear a couple of Tundras in an all-Klimax system with Fredrik at WYSAH when he visited a few weeks ago. Sadly we didn't do any comparisons with other amps, but I was pretty blown away. One Tundra is superb, but two is clearly even better!
Charlie1 wrote:
anthony wrote:If you take the digital out from an Oppo DVD into a ADSM you would be surprised how good cd sounds, although , with a ds you probably would not play many cds.
242s really do need a kk1 though.
Cool. Is an AK/1 enough do you think?
I know you like the 242 stands, but do they tighten up the sound much?
ocoro02 wrote:I personally wouldn't consider an AK/1 much of an upgrade over a Kikkin. I preferred my Kikkin 2.2 to an AK/1 - just more transparent and didn't add that 'smoothness' that the AK/1 has.
Thanks. I knew the original AK was similar performance to Kikkin 1, but wasn't sure about the latest version.
