FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Become a member   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in 

Harmonihyllan
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Lejonklou Forum Index -> On the Inside
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 2618
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: 2009-09-01 19:01    Post subject: Harmonihyllan Reply with quote

I've finally got a Harmonihyllan at home, a 1+3 version. The 1+3 model consists of one Mimer shelf on the top (a machined aluminium clamped with a thin solid wood) and three Oden shelves (solid birch wood) below. Easily expandable with more shelves, if necessary.

Need to experiment some more before I post any final conclusions, but the first evening was a complete shock. Very different sound! Melodic and extremely detailed - it felt quite confusing because the focus in the music was so different from what I was used to. My wife also commented that things sounded really different and that it was very easy to hear what people were singing.

I was told, however, that the rack needed to settle in it's new environment. The wood reacts to temperature and humidity levels and after it's settled, one should level it with the spikes and gently tighten the columns. Been so busy I haven't had time to do that yet. :oops:

I remember that Music Lover wrote that his Mimer rack sounded really strange the first evening (correct, ML?). And without having adjusted it at all, I must say mine was the same. The confusion settled after the first day and the details stopped being "all over the place" as it initially felt. It now has a wonderful sense of tranquility and tuneful exactness combined.

Will soon adjust it and then play with various components on the two types of shelves. A bit scared of placing the LP12 on it, though, as I'm afraid it will be difficult to put it back on the QS wallshelf...

If Harmonihyllan is as good as I suspect, I will start demonstrating and offering it to customers.

More later!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member

Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 1370
Location: UK

PostPosted: 2009-09-01 19:57    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great news. Please please see how the LP12 is on the best shelf - maybe it won't be good and you can put it back on the Quad shelf :D

The ideal would be to compare it against a benchmark that we can all access like the Sunuko-Vent, but anything is better than nothing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MRTweak
Member
Member

Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 14
Location: Middle of Sweden

PostPosted: 2009-09-01 22:00    Post subject: Welcome to my world Fredrik Reply with quote

Welcome, to what i have been experimenting with, for the last 15 years.

Namely to find out, how to support my Linn gear, so that i would get maximum performance and musical pleasure from them.

I've got quite a few tricks up my sleeve now, so if you would like to have some pointers, dont be a stranger.

Youve got my cellphone number since you helped me switch laser on my old Karik and then delivered it personally when you was going on a vacation to Norway, with your family.

Good Luck from MRTweak
_________________
MRTweak
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 2618
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: 2009-09-01 22:48    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you MRTweak! And welcome here.

I don't have any plans on developing my own racks, however. Just hearing about the work that led to Mimer convinces me that I will stay away from that road. Wouldn't be time for anything else!

Since Anders demonstrated the Mimer shelf to me, I have started taking microphonics seriously. Optimising the internal damping of my small enclosures is something I've given time - and I've so far found that the optimal damping is the same, regardless of whether the enclosure stands on a wooden stool, a Quadraspire shelf or Mimer. Which is a relief!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
springwood64
Active Member
Active Member

Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 87
Location: Devon

PostPosted: 2009-09-02 08:29    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frederik,

My quick experiment with a Linto shows that the Trampolin 2 on the LP12 provides much better isolation from vibration than the stock feet of LK/AV components. Does this mean that an LP12 on a Trampolin 2 will be much less sensitive to different supports?

It would be really interesting to hear the outcome of your experiment specifically comparing supports for the LP12. I'd also be interested to hear how a Linto on a tramp on the Quadraspire or Mimer compares to a Linto with no isolation on the other supports.

Could it be that "cheap support + isolation" provides a cost effective (in terms of tunefulness rather than aesthetics) alternative to "super racks"? Perhaps there is something else going on apart from isolation with these exotic racks.

MRTweak: we'd be very interested in hearing what you've learnt - please share your tricks on the forum here :D
_________________
Pete
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MRTweak
Member
Member

Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 14
Location: Middle of Sweden

PostPosted: 2009-09-02 22:44    Post subject: Cheap racks and isolation Reply with quote

Hi Anthony, Linns recomends a light and ridgid support for their gear and that is sound advice (pity they dont make any that is for sale :cry: )
The only really light support/shelf that i know about is Ringmat vivacity fireworks. I have not tried it yet myself but i will or i will try to make a similar shelf myself. The asking price and the "bullshit marketing mumbo jumbo" makes me upset :x
Your question was if a cheap rack could be combined with an isolation device and result would be heavenly bliss. Sorry i dont think so, because most apparatus needs both the isolation and the mechanical earthing at the same time. I know it sounds totally impossible but it can be done. It just aint easy to do. It doesnt have to be so expensive, my total outlay is about 1500 Euro for my homemade 6-shelf wallrack. Then there is the matter of WAF..if thats importent then you will have to pay a lot more to bye a factory made rack for the floor like Mimer, Finite Element or Stillpoint . There is no multi shelf wallrack on the market, only single or double. Good luck with your experiments
_________________
MRTweak
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MRTweak
Member
Member

Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 14
Location: Middle of Sweden

PostPosted: 2009-09-02 22:46    Post subject: sorry Reply with quote

Sorry Pete, i am to tired now, thats probably why i called you Anthony :oops:
_________________
MRTweak
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 2618
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: 2009-09-03 10:02    Post subject: Reply with quote

springwood64 wrote:
Does this mean that an LP12 on a Trampolin 2 will be much less sensitive to different supports?

Not in my experience. The Trampolin 2 makes the LP12 sound better (quite a cost effective upgrade!), but the differences in sound between supports remain.

I think that MRTweak is right when he mentions the need for isolation and mechanical grounding. My limited experience suggests that neither pure isolation or excessive mass/grounding sounds any good, on any piece of HiFi.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
springwood64
Active Member
Active Member

Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 87
Location: Devon

PostPosted: 2009-09-03 10:08    Post subject: Reply with quote

lejonklou wrote:

I think that MRTweak is right when he mentions the need for isolation and mechanical grounding. My limited experience suggests that neither pure isolation or excessive mass/grounding sounds any good, on any piece of HiFi.


Could you explain what you mean by mechanical grounding? I can understand isolation (at a very basic level) in terms of mechanically decoupling the component and support to reduce the transmission of vibration in either direction. What part does mechanical grounding play?
_________________
Pete
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 2618
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: 2009-09-03 10:42    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I mean is that the unit is firmly connected to the support, not floating.

When Harmonihyllan was developed, it seems Anders went back and forth between these two opposites. An aluminium shelf is far more stable than a wooden shelf -> more stability and better grounding. But perhaps it was ringing too much or transmitting too much energy -> machine cavities below it to reduce mass, while keeping it rigid.

Same thing with the wooden shelves, the columns and all the connecting parts: Stable but not too rigid.

I am no master of this trade, but there are similar balance acts in electronics. Firm connections to power supplies and grounds is good, but also injects disturbances. Filtering and isolation helps, but can't be overdone. Etcetera.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
springwood64
Active Member
Active Member

Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 87
Location: Devon

PostPosted: 2009-09-03 11:00    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apologies for the basic level of my questions :oops:

This is how I've interpreted your explanation:

    A component needs to be kept as stationary as possible.

    The role of a support is to lock the component in one location, but this can promote vibration between the two.

    The role of isolation is to minimise vibration, but this can reduce the ability of the support to lock the component in one location.


Is this right?
_________________
Pete
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 2618
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: 2009-09-03 11:32    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds reasonable.

What does MRTweak say?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Music Lover
Very active member
Very active member

Joined: 31 Jan 2007
Posts: 1057
Location: In front of my Linn system

PostPosted: 2009-09-03 19:01    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to interfere but I like some feedback on Mimer performance 8)
_________________
Tune dem rules!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MRTweak
Member
Member

Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 14
Location: Middle of Sweden

PostPosted: 2009-09-03 19:11    Post subject: Feet and isolation Reply with quote

I apoligize for my bad way of explaining things and poor spelling. But i think you have got it now :mrgreen:

One very easy way of minimizing the amount of microphonics is to use wallshelfs. I believe that most electronics are much more sensitive if the vibration enters vertically (up and down) from the floor than if it is rocked sideways from wall vibration. Of course the springs on a LP12 has an easier task of doing the same. Also the PCB with all the smd components usually is horisontal and when it flexis minute amounts the resistance varies a little.
_________________
MRTweak
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 2618
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: 2009-09-03 19:43    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now I don't quite follow you, MRT. The springs of an LP12 move vertically, not horisontally. Therefore horisontal movements will be much less damped than vertical movements. I agree that with circuit boards, it's possible that they flex less with horisontal movements.

I haven't had the impression that wallshelves are better than floor racks. Rather the contrary. Especially with the LP12, which has never sounded as good on the wall as on a good floor table, in my humble opinion.

ML: You have a Mimer rack yourself, don't you? :mrgreen:
I have to play around with it a bit more before I review it properly, but so far I am VERY impressed!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
MRTweak
Member
Member

Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 14
Location: Middle of Sweden

PostPosted: 2009-09-03 21:15    Post subject: wallshelfs Reply with quote

What i mean is that the very minute sideways movements from the wall in one end of the springs is more or less "absorbed" by the springs and not transmitted to the inner chassis (or KEEL) due to the great mass of that heavy platter and tonearm. Sorry it would be easier to explain in Swedish. The vibrational energy also has to make a 90 degree turn which makes it less harmful.

I started out with wallshelfs because of a footfall problem (floating wooden floor) and had a concrete wall and the sonic improvement came as a very pleasent surprise. I know that Anders also is reluctent to hanging things on the wall. But I have tried both the wall and floor in my HIFI cellar room and the wall was the winner, although it has a very steady concrete floor . You are very welcome to check it out for yourself, but Its best that you dont, because your HIFI-world will never be the same :mrgreen: I am dead serious, :|
_________________
MRTweak
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 2618
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: 2009-09-23 23:56    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've now tested Harmonihyllan more and am so pleased with it that I have accepted an offer of becoming a retailer for it. Looking forward to installing it in people's homes and hear what it can do in different environments and with various systems. As I have one Mimer shelf at the top of my rack, and three Oden shelves below it, I've been playing around with various components on the different shelves to hear what happens. In general, my conclusion is that, once again, source first rules here.

With electronics, the biggest difference of all is placing the Radikal on the various shelves. This brings changes that feels plain silly when I consider that it's a power supply feeding a DC voltage to a wrapped-in-foam motor that drives the LP12 platter through a rubber belt! Preamps and phono amps are also sensitive, with a bit more of a sound difference, but slightly less change in the musical flow, compared to the Radikal. The Unidisk 1.1 also follows source first and is profoundly affected.

I have so far tested with my own small enclosures (Kinki, Slipsik and Kikkin), Linn AV-sized components and the LP12. I haven't tried any Klimax or LK-size cases or DS-players, only previously in Anders' shop.

Comparing a light coffee table (which is a lot better than on the floor) with an Oden shelf is a joy: Oden creates order, makes more notes and less blur in the bass. The word 'harmonic' springs to mind when the music plays along so effortlessly - I suspect it once did for Anders too. It's very easy to just become seated and listen to the music, nothing stands out or takes over, it just flows. In comparison, I feel that the Quadraspire wallshelf is dynamically exaggerated and a bit confused. It makes more "HiFi noise", but less music.

Moving to Mimer is a revelation! Melodies are easier to follow and the sound feels less compressed. Almost like a 'loudness war' in reverse, especially so on the Radikal. There is a sound difference, which I thought was apparent on all components: Lots of subtle details appears, all in the right place and time. The treble becomes more nuanced instead of noisy and same-same. It's hard to go back, as with Mimer songs feel so fluent and easy to understand.

I held back for a long time with placing the LP12 on the top Mimer shelf, due to my wooden floor being springy. I simply can't walk around with the LP12 being placed on anything but the concrete wall. But I have heard LP12 on Quadraspire, Oden and Mimer at Tonläget, and it was very convincing. At home this turned out to be a tricky one. Once on Mimer, the LP12 sounded cleaner and more "right" than on the QS wallshelf, but something happened in the lowest bass that I wasn't entirely happy with.

I consulted Anders about this and he said the LP12 is very sensitive to certain low frequencies and therefore requires more trial and error in its positioning than other components. He suggested that I could try a different position in the room for the rack. There is likely some kind of interaction between the LP12, Harmonihyllan and the springy floor that makes something funny in the lowest bass. Harmonihyllan is stable but not rock stable, it has a certain amount of - intentional! - flex in it's structure, and Anders said it's designed for a stable floor. He personally felt that with some floors, a good wallshelf can be a better option for a turntable.

For the moment I have my LP12 back on the QS wallshelf. It doesn't sound as nuanced or intimate there, but I can walk around without the needle jumping. I do feel I need to investigate LP12 on Mimer a bit more, hopefully I will get opportunities to do that in other people's homes.

For the electronic components, I definitely want more Mimers! Most likely it will be one at a time, when funds permit.

Phew! This post became almost as long as this day has been...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
MRTweak
Member
Member

Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 14
Location: Middle of Sweden

PostPosted: 2009-09-24 16:56    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am really happy for you, that Mimer and Odin shelfes improves your gear so much.

You could try and put a Mimer shelf on top of your present wallshelf to see how that works.

Or you could check out a more sofisticated design like a Finite element wallshelf if WAF is importent.

You could also borrow my old consols if looks are not so importent.

God luck from MRTweak
_________________
MRTweak
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 2618
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: 2009-09-24 17:37    Post subject: Reply with quote

MRTweak wrote:
You could try and put a Mimer shelf on top of your present wallshelf to see how that works.

Interesting you should mention that! Anders told me that someone has done just that, but he hadn't tried it himself.

If it works well, I might be tempted to check whether spikes can be fitted to the Mimer shelf at the right locations for it to fit the holes in the QS rods. It could then replace the original shelf. I asked Anders about this possibility, but he hadn't looked further into it. He focuses on floor standing racks.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
MRTweak
Member
Member

Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 14
Location: Middle of Sweden

PostPosted: 2009-09-24 20:02    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since you also have a "footfall" problem, I think that after some tweaking, of the interface between Mimer and your wallshelf, that this will be the best solution. :mrgreen:

MRTweak
_________________
MRTweak
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 2618
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: 2009-09-28 18:41    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEWS!!

There will soon be a new shelf released for Harmonihyllan: Tor. As it's not yet released, I can't guarantee that the information below is 100% correct. But I hope it is.

Tor consists of two clamped shelves, both of solid wood. The lower one is thin, just like on Mimer, and acts as a resonance dampener. The upper one is an Oden shelf.

Performance wise Tor will be in between Oden and Mimer, but the price will be closer to Oden, as there is no expensive machined aluminium shelf involved. Oden shelves will also be possible to upgrade to Tor very cost effectively, as you only add the bottom dampening part.

There is also an upgrade of the Mimer shelf around the corner. This will most probably be an extremely cost effective upgrade for Mimer owners, as it consists of new dampening material only.

I will soon upgrade one of my Oden shelves to Tor. I will then have a rack with:
1. Mimer shelf (latest version)
2. Tor shelf
3. Oden shelf
4. Oden bottom shelf (the bottom shelf doesn't sound quite as good as those above it, as it also acts as a platform for the spikes).


Anders just released a webpage in Swedish with more information about Harmonihyllan. It will soon be available in English too.

http://www.harmonihyllan.se/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member

Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 1348
Location: United States

PostPosted: 2009-10-02 19:27    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well Fredrik, between you and Music Lover I have certainly become intrigued by the Harmonihyllan shelving systems. I suppose I will have to find a way to get these into my system at some point.

I do, however, have some concerns - not the least of which is the effect on my bank account. :( First off, I ran the pages through Google Translate to at least get an idea of the story and was sad to find no comparison has been done between different woods! As you can imagine, the work I have done evaluating plinths would leave me always wondering which wood really makes the best sounding shelf. Secondly, looking at all the photos and info I get the sinking feeling that the aluminum posts and shelves may not be available in black. :o I would have to do some work to accept the idea of my black equipment surrounded by silver shelving.

I look forward to hearing more about how the Tor performs and to seeing the actual English version of the site. I do hope someone eventually tries the different woods for musical quality. I also have a few questions: Is it the case, as it appears, that the wood shelf on the Mimer is thinner than on the Oden? In which case you are actually replacing the wood shelf when you upgrade to Mimer and not just adding the aluminum shelf on top. Also, do the spikes for the floor actually attach to the bottom shelf rather than being extensions of the rods? From the description and your statements it appears this is how it is built and I don't see spikes in the corners of the Oden photo. If this is so, how do the spikes attach on the bottom shelf of an all Mimer rack: do they attach to the thin wooden shelf or to the aluminum one? If to the aluminum, do they pass through holes in the thin wooden shelf or is the wooden shelf dispensed with on the bottom? Since the bottom shelf is not supposed to sound as musical as the others is it better just to leave the bottom shelf empty? (Quadraspire has recommended this for their reference shelves.) If you were going to leave the bottom empty is there any advantage to it being a Mimer shelf rather than just an Oden? (You don't think I'm obsessing about this, do you? :) )

I also thought you might be interested to know that Quadraspire is working on a new shelf design that might help your wall shelf situation. They are going to make a shelf the same size as the standard Q4 but use something similar to the Sunoko design with the slots. Last I heard it was not sure if the slots would go all the way through or would be more like grooves in the bottom. Either way the idea is to reduce resonance but I also think the reduction in mass would be beneficial for a turntable shelf. From what I hear they are looking at a November introduction with pricing somewhere between standard and reference Q4 pricing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator

Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 2618
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: 2009-10-03 11:45    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThomasOK wrote:
... was sad to find no comparison has been done between different woods!

That's not entirely correct. Anders have tried a number of different materials, of which he felt that solid pieces of birch glued together by his carpenter performed the best. These were superior to other wooden shelves, cheaper premade boards (from IKEA and the like) and various fibre boards.

I know that Anders then went into how thick, wide and deep the solid birch shelves should be, how they should be fastened (which years later led to Oden 2.5) and damped (on Mimer and Tor). All experiments are done with the birch and he has intentionally stayed away from varying that parameter in order to make steady progress. The current challenge is to make sure the damping is optimal in different amounts of humidity.

So, unlike when making an LP12 plinth, where many parameters are fixed, the wood type on a rack shelf is only one factor of many (size, thickness, glue, humidity, temperature, fastening, dampening). I fully understand the need to keep some parameters fixed, otherwise one can easily get lost.

Quote:
Secondly, looking at all the photos and info I get the sinking feeling that the aluminum posts and shelves may not be available in black. :o

True. I wonder how difficult it would be to paint them black? I'll ask Anders if he's looked into that.

Quote:
Is it the case, as it appears, that the wood shelf on the Mimer is thinner than on the Oden?

Yes, it's thinner. And the same thinner shelf combined with an Oden shelf becomes a Tor.

Quote:
In which case you are actually replacing the wood shelf when you upgrade to Mimer and not just adding the aluminum shelf on top.

Correct.

Quote:
Also, do the spikes for the floor actually attach to the bottom shelf rather than being extensions of the rods?

Yes. This makes the rack sound better, according to Anders. But the performance of the bottom shelf becomes less than all the shelves above it. It's not necessary to leave it empty, but you should preferably put the least important product there.

Not sure about the Mimer bottom shelf, I'll ask Anders about that. I have an Oden there and wonder too whether there's a point in having a Mimer there.

Thanks for the QS info!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member

Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 1348
Location: United States

PostPosted: 2009-10-03 17:04    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all thanks for all the clarification, it helps to understand better what is going on with the racks.

lejonklou wrote:
ThomasOK wrote:
... was sad to find no comparison has been done between different woods!

That's not entirely correct. Anders have tried a number of different materials...


It is interesting to read about the research that was put into the design of these units. It is obvious that Anders has put a lot of time and care into making the most musical supports and this is one of the things I find so attractive about this series of racks. What I also find particularly encouraging is that development continues on the rack designs and that upgrades are made available to existing customers at a reasonable price. This upgradeability, while something we are used to from Linn, is certainly the exception rather than the rule when it comes to component furniture.

However, what I was referring to is the fact that while the Harmonihyllan are available with Birch, Cherry and Black Ash shelves, Anders states clearly in the FAQ section that no comparisons have been done of these different woods. He does state that the development was done with the Birch but also states that, at least in part, this was due to the ready availability of the material. For me this leaves a big question mark as to which wood to go with.

While I thoroughly understand that the other variables such as thickness, glue, finish, etc. are quite important to the performance of the shelves (as I'm also sure similar variables effect the performance of a plinth, which really only has the parameter of certain dimensions fixed) I would expect that the same techniques of construction are being used on all the available woods. That being the case it would certainly be instructive to know how the three different woods available perform from a tune standpoint.

lejonklou wrote:
It's not necessary to leave it empty, but you should preferably put the least important product there.


What if you don't have a least important product? :)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member

Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 1370
Location: UK

PostPosted: 2009-10-03 17:47    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThomasOK wrote:
What if you don't have a least important product? :)

I didn't realise you'd sold your Ikemi :D
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Lejonklou Forum Index -> On the Inside All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 1 of 6

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

Using a modified version of theme xand created by spleen.