Aktiv LK140 or Passive Klout?

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Aktiv LK140 or Passive Klout?

Post by Ceilidh »

Hello everyone!

Here's a question that's been asked repeatedly on the Topica forum, but which never seemed to get a clear answer:

Q: Given Ninkas as the speaker, would you advise driving them passively with a single (final generation) Klout, or actively with two (final generation) LK140 amps and Aktiv cards?

Please note the "final generation" clause(!), as the Topica discussions were muddied by people comparing ancient Klouts to brand new LK140s, etc.

As for background: used & eBay prices have gotten to the point that the two configurations (one passive final-spec Klout vs. a pair of final-spec LK140+Aktiv cards) are fairly close in price. So I'm daydreaming. :D

(Oh -- and yes I realize that two Aktiv Klouts would be by far the better solution!...but please let's ignore that possibility for now!)

Thank you very much, and hope you're all having a good Monday.

- C
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Post by teatime »

Not to immediately break the constraints of your question but you don't mention the, imho, most obvious option at this price point: One AV5125 active. Did you consider this? It's bound to be the best sounding option of the three. (It's also probably the most expensive, but I wouldn't expect the difference be all that much.)

To answer your question.. umm... not a clue. :D

I've had LK140s driving Kaber active and Klouts driving Katan active. No doubt, Klout is the better amp (I also prefer it to the 5125) and it's certainly nicer to look at, but in general, I tend to prefer active systems. If you can't stretch to the 5125 option, I think I would prefer the active LK140s. Mind you, I haven't tested either on Ninka. (I have heard the 5125/Ninka option, and it sounds great.)
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Post by Music Lover »

140 active or Klout passive?

As the difference between these two going to be small compared with 2* Klout active (or 5125 active) it's better to buy a Klout as you later on can buy another and then get active!
2*Klout active going to be a LOT better than the other options!
A bit better than 5125 active as well.
And then you can add a third Klout :D


Remember - think "long term" :!:
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Post by ThomasOK »

I can't give you a definitive answer on this as I haven't tried it myself but I can give you an indication. I have done a comparison of one 2250 vs. Aktiv with a 5125 and found that the 2250 passive setup was more tuneful. The 5125 Aktiv was more detailed and more "Hi-Fi" but not as musically satisfying as the 2250 passive. Interestingly enough I found the opposite with the Akurates. There two 5125s Aktiv were more tuneful and musical than two 2250s passive. My belief is that the considerably more complex crossover of the Akurate makes the difference larger between passive and Aktiv then the comparatively simple crossover of the Ninka.

Based on these observatons I believe that one Klout would outperform 2 LK140s. (Although one 2250, which I believe is more tuneful and sells for about the same as the Klout, would be better yet.) And as Music Lover says, getting a Klout (or a 2250) will allow you to get another one later and then go Aktiv for a further performance boost.
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Post by lejonklou »

ThomasOK wrote:/...[With Ninka] the 2250 passive setup was more tuneful.
Interestingly enough I found the opposite with the Akurates. .../
Very interesting stuff, Thomas!

To me this illuminates the importance of verifying one's theories with experiments. My guess would have been that aktiv 5125-Ninka is better than passive 2250-Ninka...

In any case, the advice to think "long term" is very good IMHO.
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Post by Music Lover »

ThomasOK wrote: My belief is that the considerably more complex crossover of the Akurate makes the difference larger between passive and Aktiv then the comparatively simple crossover of the Ninka..
Can also be different generations active filters...'

btw, did you use exactly same 2250/5125 amps? Individuals have slightly different performance.
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Post by lejonklou »

Music Lover wrote:Can also be different generations active filters...
Correct. If you look closer at Linns older aktiv mono and stereo filters (pre-Chakra), the power supply part on them varies quite a bit between different models. In addition, the different power amplifier models also vary in power supply voltage. The result of this is that each combination of [aktiv filter model]+[amplifier model] performs differently. In some combinations, the filters are running hot. In others, they are close to under-voltage.

As Linn now releases a conversion kit to fit new Chakra-style mono filters into older amplifier models, I hope they have made a better solution for the power supply part. That would make the filters perform better, regardless of what amps they are used in.
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Thank you very much, everyone!

Post by Ceilidh »

Hello folks -- just wanted to say thank you very much for all the responses!

1) Teatime:
The AV5125 sounds very interesting, and I thank you for the recommendation(!) -- but one thing I didn't mention (my apologies!) is that at the moment, between my parents and myself, we have a Klout, an LK140, and an LK85 -- and we have to decide which one(s) to sell. Hence we figured we'd either keep the Klout and sell the LK amps, or else sell the Klout, get some Aktiv cards for the LK85/140, and maybe upgrade the LK85 to an LK140 when and if the opportunity arises....

On a related but different note: I'm a little embarrassed to say that these amps will be hung off the back of a little Classik for the next year (or several years), so in addition to sounding nice in the future, things would have to sound nice -- for a fairly long time -- with a middling front end. Somehow a Klout sounds nice with a Classik, as do LK amps -- but I've been warned by a Linn engineer that the AV5125 wouldn't sound very good with a Classik, presumably as it's so revealing. So I'd be hesitant to go with the 5125 until I've upgraded my source and preamp....

But yes, starting from scratch with a more high-performance front end, an Aktiv AV5125 might be very attractive!

2) Music Lover,
Do I understand you correctly that a single passive Klout would sound very similar to two Aktiv LK140s? If so, then that would suggest my staying with the Klout, in part because of the future 2-Klout upgrade possibility (though I'd probably upgrade the source before investing in a second Klout), and in part because of the reduced box count/complexity and the potentially higher resale value in the future (that is, I'm guessing that Klouts will hold their current value a bit better than LK amps and Aktiv cards will hold theirs -- but I could be wrong). Thanks for the suggestion here!

(And gosh -- 3 Aktiv Klouts (with a better front end): it's nice to dream about! Is that what your old system was like?)

3) Thomas,
Thank you very, very much (as always) for the articulate and well-reasoned response! "Musically Satisfying" is what I love so much about my Klout -- I can't really explain why, but if I put a classical waltz CD in the Classik on its own or when connected to a passive LK, I hear a nice classical waltz; but when I play the Classik through the Klout, I want to find a pretty girl and start waltzing! (Note -- it's hard to do in an 11-foot living room, but it can be done!) So if the same pattern would hold with passive Klout vs. Aktiv LK140, that would suggest going with the Klout....

(As for a 2250 instead of a Klout: I'll look into that upgrade in the warm, rosy, and financially healthier future!)

Thank you again, everyone -- I really appreciate your suggestions and perspectives!

- C
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Re: Thank you very much, everyone!

Post by Music Lover »

Ceilidh wrote: 2) Music Lover,
Do I understand you correctly that a single passive Klout would sound very similar to two Aktiv LK140s? If so, then that would suggest my staying with the Klout, in part because of the future 2-Klout upgrade possibility (though I'd probably upgrade the source before investing in a second Klout), and in part because of the reduced box count/complexity and the potentially higher resale value in the future ?)
No, I'm saying; don't bother spending time on these options as 2*Klouts going to be superiour!
So why then start using Lk140 at all?
Ceilidh wrote:
(that is, I'm guessing that Klouts will hold their current value a bit better than LK amps and Aktiv cards will hold theirs -- but I could be wrong). Thanks for the suggestion here!
yes, Klout is likely to hold value better than Lk140. But please buy the unit(s) YOU like and make the purchase based on the sound
Ceilidh wrote:
(And gosh -- 3 Aktiv Klouts (with a better front end): it's nice to dream about! Is that what your old system was like?)
No, I had more Klouts :mrgreen:
Your description of Klouts is really spot-on
but when I play the Classik through the Klout, I want to find a pretty girl and start waltzing
It's all about musical understanding!
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Clarification

Post by Ceilidh »

Music Lover wrote: No, I'm saying; don't bother spending time on these options as 2*Klouts going to be superiour!
So why then start using Lk140 at all?

But please buy the unit(s) YOU like and make the purchase based on the sound
Hello Music Lover!

Just a clarification: I already own (or rather, my parents and I collectively now own) a Klout and 2 LK amps -- so we won't be buying any amps! Instead it's a matter of what we should sell off, and whether I should hunt around for LK aktiv cards. :D

Anyway, having heard my parents' Chakra 5100 (the purchase of which has led to our having redundant amplifiers), I think -- if I were starting from scratch -- that I would look for a Majik or Chakra x100 amp of some sort. (Though come to think of it, it'd be interesting to hear what you and the others think about Klout vs. Chakra/Majik x100 -- the Klout certainly would have more power, whilst the x100 might have more detail....but which would be more musical? :D )

This is a fun hobby for daydreaming & planning for the future!

- C
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Re: Clarification

Post by Music Lover »

Ceilidh wrote: Just a clarification: I already own (or rather, my parents and I collectively now own) a Klout and 2 LK amps -- so we won't be buying any amps! Instead it's a matter of what we should sell off, and whether I should hunt around for LK aktiv cards. :D
ok then - sell the LK140. As a bonus, you dont have to spend time on finding the active cards. :D
Ceilidh wrote:
it'd be interesting to hear what you and the others think about Klout vs. Chakra/Majik x100 -- the Klout certainly would have more power, whilst the x100 might have more detail....but which would be more musical? :D )
As you have both in the family, please compare :mrgreen:
In an active setup, I think I would pick x100 but it's really the x200 that is an interesting option to Klout as it has the power x100 lack, and a good bit more expensive :wink:

BUT...keep the Klout and spend the effort/money on the source&pre.
Ceilidh wrote:
This is a fun hobby for daydreaming & planning for the future!
This s EXACTLY why you should keep the Klout. (so you can get active with another Klout later on)
It's all about musical understanding!
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Ranking?

Post by Ceilidh »

Hello Everyone!

This might be a futile endeavor, but I've tried to take your comments (and comments from the Topica List) to make up a sort of ranking -- please feel free to correct or interject!

TENTATIVE AMPLIFIER RANKINGS - bottom to top, on Tune Dem / Musicality terms, for a simple speaker (e.g., Ninka)
(based on latest versions of each amp)


LK100 / Majik Integrated -- passive
LK85 / Classik Music -- passive
LK140 -- passive
LK100 -- Aktiv
LK85 -- Aktiv
LK140 -- Aktiv
Klout -- passive
2250 -- passive
Akurate x200 -- passive
Klout -- Aktiv
2250 -- Aktiv
Akurate x200 -- Aktiv
Klimax Twin
Klimax Solo


Is this more or less what you folks are hearing? And where would the Chakra/Majik x100, and the AV5125 fit in?

Anyway, if the above list is hopelessly ill-founded, I'll delete the whole thing so that nobody stumbles upon it in the future -- but if it can be refined / corrected, I'll take any comments and incorporate them into a revised list.

Happy Tuesday! :D

- C
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Post by lejonklou »

Hmm... as Thomas suggested above, aktiv versus passive performance can depend on speaker model. I would therefore not mix passive and aktiv in the same list.

A list of how the amplifiers perform in passive mode makes reasonable sense to me. Aktiv brings too many new variables into the equation. IMHO!
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Post by ThomasOK »

I agree with Fredrik on this, ranking the amplifiers by themselves makes sense but the ranking of Aktiv
vs. Passive setups will be dependent on the speaker and also on the crossover.

To further confuse matters, the 5125 Aktiv/2250 Passive Ninka comparison that I did used mono cards (I can't be certain of the vintage) in a Tunebox so it is certainly possible that stereo cards inside the 5125 (as used in the Akurate comparison) might have changed the preference.

I generally agree with the ranking of the amplifiers as you have listed them although you will find some disagreement on the Klout vs. 2250.

LK100
LK85
LK140
Klout
2250
Akurate x200
Klimax Twin
Klimax Solo

I think most would rate the 5125 as noticeably better than the LK140 but not in the league of the 2250 or Klout. I feel that the Majik x100 comes in as a touch more tuneful than the 2250 or Klout but not as powerful as the 2250 or Klout so not really a worthwhile upgrade from them and not suitable for all speakers although a very good series of amplifiers to start with for a number of speakers. The Akurate x200 series is a clear improvement over any of the lesser amps.

As to Aktiv vs. passive, I think that you can usually drop the amplifier quality down a notch or two and still have better sound Aktiv due to the other advantages of getting the passive crossover out of the way. Just doing this makes the job of the amplifiers so much simpler and more direct that it changes the dynamic of the system. But again, as many have said, it is always best to hear the differences for yourself. The only way to know what is truly more musical is to listen - there are few things in music reproduction that always work the way you think they should.
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Post by Ceilidh »

Thanks for the feedback, Thomas and Mr. Lejonklou(!). It's a pity the Aktiv systems are so hard to place in the continuum, but I'll defer to your better judgements. :D

In any case, let me try to put the (passive, final-spec) amps into a 2x2 diagram (which will be a little tricky to set up w/o using a real graph). Unless you think it a terrible idea, I'll set the two axes as:

Vertical: "tunefulness"
Horizontal: perceived power

(and if someone could explain exactly what's described by each of those terms, I'd appreciate it! Also, if anyone has a better pair of axes to propose, I'm open to suggestions.....) :D

Anyway, I've tried to "clump" the amps in accordance with how people describe them (e.g., the LK85 is very close to the LK100, but the LK140 is a considerable step up from both). So if you disagree with the spacing and/or where things line up (e.g., I've got the Cx100 as having less perceived power than the 5125), please let me know and I'll adjust things.

Hope it's not completely off!

-C



Tunefulness

^
|.................................................................................................................................K Solo
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|.......................................................................................................................K Twin
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|......................................................................................................Cx200
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|......................................Cx100
|.............................................................................2250
|.........................................................................................Klout
|
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|...............................................5125
|
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|............................................. LK140
|
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|..............LK85
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|(old) Majik...LK100
|_______________________________________________________________________>Perceived "Power"
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Post by Azazello »

ThomasOK wrote:I think most would rate the 5125 as noticeably better than the LK140 but not in the league of the 2250 or Klout.
I have heard of many people who have done this comparison and the outcome have been very different. Many people (among them Lejonklou) have stated that 5125 i better than Klout, and others have claimed the opposite. In my world, this makes Klout a kind of bad idea considering it's price...

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Post by Music Lover »

Azazello wrote:In my world, this makes Klout a kind of bad idea considering it's price...
It must be a reason for the high Klout price... :wink:

Personally I prefer Klout over 5125.
For me it's more a discussion - Klout vs. 2550 :D

Klout has great musicallity, nice sound, power and character!
I consider 5125/2250 more sterile.
2250 keeping the tune slightly better but it's something that I miss, that is present in Klout.

Lessons learned?
For products close in performance, many items can affect the result; Speakers...installation...and personal preferences. (+ active or passive usage)

But I consider the 100W/200W chakra amps better that both Klout/2250.
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by ThomasOK »

Azazello wrote:
ThomasOK wrote:I think most would rate the 5125 as noticeably better than the LK140 but not in the league of the 2250 or Klout.
I have heard of many people who have done this comparison and the outcome have been very different. Many people (among them Lejonklou) have stated that 5125 is better than Klout, and others have claimed the opposite. In my world, this makes Klout a kind of bad idea considering it's price...
You notice that I waffled on this by saying "most would". As a matter of fact I personally feel the 5125 is more tuneful than the Klout but I am in the minority at my store. There is no question that the Klout can drive difficult loads better - I was told by a Linn rep that the 5125 was not recommended for Isobariks or Keltiks as it couldn't drive them properly.

What I have noticed is that those who have spent a lot of time with Klouts really love the amp and tend to prefer it to the 5125 and sometimes to the 2250. Others who, like myself, skipped over the Klout and went from a LK280 direct to the new amps often prefer the 5125 on tunefulness over the Klout as do many newbies with no experience of the older amps.

On the other hand there seems to be no question that the Chakra x200 series amps easily outperform all of the above mentioned amps. My conclusion on this that the Klout, 2250 and 5125 (used within its capabilities) are all fine amps and it is generally not worth "upgrading" from one to another. If you want a real upgrade from these three amps then the Chakra - now Akurate - x200 series or Klimax series are the way to go.

By the way I also would put the LK280/Spark in that general league. While it is not as good as a Klout, it is close enough that I couldn't justify the cost of upgrading back when I had four of them running Aktiv Isobariks.
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Post by Music Lover »

ThomasOK wrote: What I have noticed is that those who have spent a lot of time with Klouts really love the amp and tend to prefer it to the 5125 and sometimes to the 2250. Others who, like myself, skipped over the Klout and went from a LK280 direct to the new amps often prefer the 5125 on tunefulness over the Klout as do many newbies with no experience of the older amps.
I have exactly same experience!
ThomasOK wrote: My conclusion on this that the Klout, 2250 and 5125 (used within its capabilities) are all fine amps and it is generally not worth "upgrading" from one to another. If you want a real upgrade from these three amps then the Chakra - now Akurate - x200 series or Klimax series are the way to go.
YES, small steps should be avoided.
fyi, I went from Klout to chakra 200W skipping the 2250 upgrade
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Post by sommerfee »

Music Lover wrote: 2250 keeping the tune slightly better but it's something that I miss, that is present in Klout.
I totally agree, but maybe that is something that you will only recognize if you have owned a Klout for yourself a while!?

I moved from Klout to 2250 (and to a never version of the 2250 afterwards) and moved back to Klout about half a year later, because I really missed this "something" -- nevertheless how much better the 2250 is in many other aspects, including tune-dem -- and I didn't know that this was so important to me before. I started to realize that when I listened to a set of Mimik, Majik (the old amplifier) and Tukan, it was so much "music" to me, so touching, so human, and I realized that I don't have this at home anymore, I lost it somewhere during my "improvements". So I switched back from AV5103+2250 resp. Exotik+2250 to Kairn (Pro)+Klout and got happy again. (Source is a LP12 and Unidisk 1.1, so this was not a violated "source first" issue.) And I will never ever sell them again!

So "Aktiv LK140 or Passive Klout?" is a question for which I do not need a millisecond to answer :mrgreen:

BTW: Klimax Kontrol and Klimax Solo have the same "something", which is not easy to describe for me. So it's not a matter of "2250 has too much resolution for me" or something like this.

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Post by Music Lover »

sommerfee wrote:[Klimax Kontrol and Klimax Solo have the same "something", which is not easy to describe for me.
Agree.
Klout characteristics (tune…sound…power etc) are balanced and none of them stand out. It’s a very homogeny "high end" feeling over the sound.
I hear the same in the present "high end" Klimax products.
The budget (relatively speaking) Linn products has been design/built with compromises - and you can hear that.
When Klout was introduced it was state of the art!

After a while you getting used to that homogeneity and miss that enormously if it's missing.
Lp12 has the same feeling, as well as active (sorry aKtive :mrgreen: ) Isobarik/Keltik speakers.

And some of this state of the art Klimax feeling I hear in the chakra amps!
Wonderful amps consider their price. And great bang for the buck used in an active setup.
Sorry for this OT but I guess we are true enthusiasts.

Now, back to the records guys!
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by ThomasOK »

sommerfee wrote:
Music Lover wrote: 2250 keeping the tune slightly better but it's something that I miss, that is present in Klout.
I totally agree, but maybe that is something that you will only recognize if you have owned a Klout for yourself a while!?

BTW: Klimax Kontrol and Klimax Solo have the same "something", which is not easy to describe for me. So it's not a matter of "2250 has too much resolution for me" or something like this.

Axel
Axel, your post just made a light go off in my head. After reading it came to me that the Linn components that are held in the highest reverence all have something in common: they were all the best Linn could make at the time. The Klimax Kontrol and Solo, the Klout and Kairn, the LP12 and CD12, the Isobarik, Keltik and Komri, the Kremlin, the Ekos, the Akiva, Arkiv, Troika, the LK280/Spark. All these (and some others) were (or are) the best Linn could make at the time and they were all substantially superior to the efforts of other companies. These are the products that get people excited.

It seems to me that there is something purer about making the best product possible that leads to the greatness of these units. And that somehow the process of taking an "ultimate" design and figuring out how to make it more affordable results in a design that, while certainly enjoyable and worthwhile in its own rite, is still not as balanced or pure a design and therefore not quite as satisfying. This may be why some find a Klout (a reference product) more satisfying than a 2250 (a scaled down Klimax Twin - itself a scaled down Solo). It certainly helps explain why an LP12, Kairn, Klouts and Keltiks is still one hell of a magical hi-fi.
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Post by Azazello »

ThomasOK wrote: My conclusion on this that the Klout, 2250 and 5125 (used within its capabilities) are all fine amps and it is generally not worth "upgrading" from one to another. If you want a real upgrade from these three amps then the Chakra - now Akurate - x200 series or Klimax series are the way to go.
This is very interesting to me since my general plan is to change the 5125 to two 2250 (active). Is that a bad idea in you opinion?

/Henrik
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Post by Azazello »

ThomasOK wrote:It seems to me that there is something purer about making the best product possible that leads to the greatness of these units.
Would you say the same about Karik/Numerik compared to Ikemi or Majik CD?

/Henrik
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Post by Music Lover »

Azazello wrote:This is very interesting to me since my general plan is to change the 5125 to two 2250 (active). Is that a bad idea in you opinion?
No, it's a great plan.
The 5125 active X-overs fit 2250 and to the current price, 2250 is a bargain.
Only chakra 200W is a lot better.
It's all about musical understanding!
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