improving my turntable

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Paaf
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improving my turntable

Post by Paaf »

Hello,

As some of you might know, I recently rediscovered my turntable after it sitting unused more than a decade in a closet. It's not anywhere near highend but it still manages to totally outperform all my digital sources. It is a Systemdek I 900 with AT110.

Today I actually went to a shop and got a few LPs, probably was 20 years ago since the last time I bought LPs. Funky time machine! :)

Last few weeks I've learned about the "Tune Dem" method and used it to set the back weight thingy on the turntable. It makes quite a difference! I narrowed it down to 18, then later to 18.5 and now I found that 18.25 is even better! However, I doubt I can set it more accurate than that.

I've also done sessions of turning the power cable plug, it also has an impact, which is odd because the power only moves the disc around, and there is no amp or "auto-lift" etc on my turntable.

The sound is really nice, for the most part. If I have the same music on LP, that's my choice!

Anyway: a big BUT!

On some LPs and some tracks it suddenly distorts massively. Almost only at high volumes (the volume recorded on the LP, not the setting on the preamp), or when it gets more complex, but also other times. Most noticeable on voices.

This distortion is HORRIBLE! I want to stop listening immediately!

I used to think it was simply due to LP-format not being able to handle recorded strong volumes but a friend who owns an LP12 says it usually disappears when upgrading.

The question here now is, which part of the turntable could I tweak to avoid this distortion? Setting of anti-skate? New tonearm? New cartridge? Modify the platform (the wood part) or change the legs or the table under etc?

I do not need a massive improvement in sound quality in other respects, it's "good enough" (something I might change my opinion of if I hear a 20x more expensive turntable in my system lol)

Any hints?

Thank you
Paaf
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Post by lejonklou »

Moved to "On the Inside" on request from the author.
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Post by lejonklou »

The only thing I can say, Paaf, is that the distortion you mention is not due to the LP medium itself. But what exactly causes the distortion in your case is difficult to say.

Usually this kind of horrible distortion is a sign of the stylus not tracking the grooves properly. This could either be due to a worn stylus, an incorrect alignment of the cartridge, improper tracking force or antiskating bias or bad bearings in the arm. There might be more possible causes (please do chip in, folks!), but all of these can cause the stylus to loose tracking.

Either you hand your turntable over to a retailer who's really skilled at servicing it (recommended), or you do it yourself and we try to guide you, step by step.

First step I'd like to suggest, just to rule it out, is checking the arm. If you set tracking weight and anti skating to zero, can you make the stylus float above the entire platter without friction? And outside the edge of the platter, can you make the stylus move smoothly up and down?
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Post by Paaf »

Thank you!

After reading your post, I went through some records to have four test examples where my turntables goes into distortion mode. Specific test material is essential to avoid random optimization!

I removed the felt from the glass platter and set tracking weight and anti-skating to zero. It was still having very noticeable tracking weight so I had to change it a lot, probably I had had MUCH more than the recommended tracking weight 1-1.5g!

I balanced it, and set that as "zero". It moved freely over the platter and up and down between the platter and the rest. It very gently moves towards the edge when the arm is close to the center of the platter. (Somewhere between the center and the edge of the platter there seems to be a balance point, which might also perhaps more likely be very tiny friction for the sidewise movement). The same outwards motion but a lot more noticeable is seen with anti-skating set to more than zero.

I set the tracking weight to 1 and placed the stylus directly on the glass platter (crazy?), and found that an anti-skating of approx 0.5 was enough to have the centrifugal force balanced. Everything from 0.3 to 0.8 seemed OK. Probably this is NOT how to do it properly.

Trying the reference records now and the distortion is still there, but the situation seems to have improved somewhat. I will play around with different tracking weight settings for a while.

Any comments on the above or other hints?

Thank you
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Post by lejonklou »

Sounds good, Paaf.

It seems your arm doesn't have a lot of friction. Now, one can also check whether there is play in its bearings. This is done by gently holding the headshell and wiggling the arm to see whether there's signs of play. This is not easy to do the first time, but requires practice. The less force you are using with your hand, the easier it is to notice any play in the bearings.

If your arm is ok, then the cartridge alignment is next. You need a protractor to check that. And if the cartridge is correctly aligned, you should check that it's held firmly in place in the headshell, with a good set of screws tightened reasonably and no plastic washers or the like in between.
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Post by Paaf »

Nice.

In the direction of the arm (if that makes sense) there is a little bit of "play".

I messed around with the two screws for the cartridge alignment which I suspect I should do next, and the sound was getting worse and I realized I was shooting too much from the hip.

Now I googled protractor and found one called "VE Stupid Protractors". I used the Loefgren version (whoever that is) and it seems the cartridge randomly ended up reasonably correct, as far as I can judge from just looking at the protractor etc.

The screws are not very good but I can not see any plastic washers.
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Post by Paaf »

When messing around with the cartridge alignment I had failed to very properly tighten the screws. Tightening them improved the sound back to approximately how it was after fixing the tracking weight. *Phew!*

Regarding the "play" of the arm, I tried that also when holding the arm directly instead of via the headshell. It seems to be less play then (although I am not entirely sure since it is not possible to hold it in the exact same angle). I fear that if I tighten the (torx?) screw of the headshell, the angle of it will change (although I have idea if it's perfect as it is). Is this the next step to align?

Having fun!
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Post by lejonklou »

Sorry, but I'm not familiar with how your headshell is tightened to the armtube.

Ok, if we assume the arm bearings are ok and the cartridge geometry is right, you should check that the VTA is roughly correct. I don't know whether the height of your arm can be adjusted, but it could be good to know.

Next should be the stylus. Worn? Clean?

Please note that in this blind guidance, we could easily miss something simple... Service by an experienced turntable mechanic is still the best option!
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Post by Paaf »

I will take some photos of the whole thing.

I now removed the cartridge fold down plastic protection thing (like the "visir" of an MC helmet). Seemed reasonable it would affect the sound. Then I readjusted the weight and anti-skating. Increased the weight to just a bit more than the recommended which helped.

Now seeing the cartridge better, I checked the alignment again and it seems to be just a very tiny angle wrong. Worth aiming for perfect?

Now I tried my four reference records/tracks. One still had some distortion but improved now to "almost enjoyable". The second had some tendency to distort but mostly avoided it, felt more relaxed. The third sounded better (but I discovered the track before it sounds distorted!). The fourth I could not even find where it so badly distorted before, like I had put on the wrong record, lol, the whole track was much more relaxed! Whoohoo!

I do not think I can change the height. The stylus looks OK with a magnifier. It's not used very much, but I can't tell for sure. I clean it sometimes with some brush with liquid I bought way back.

I love to learn stuff! The whole turntable incl cartridge cost maybe 3.500kr 20 years ago. Maybe would be 4h of mechanic hourly rate. :D
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Post by Charlie1 »

Just some food for thought to add to what Fredrik is helping you with - A worn out cartridge can damage your LPs, so unless you have a high-powered microscope to examine the condition of your existing cartridge, and you understand how to interpret what you're seeing, then it might be worthwhile simply spending a small amount on a new cartridge anyway, just to be on the safe side. That is unless you're going to take it to a dealer to examine.

Sounds like you enjoy learning, so this is another element you could experience yourself. A new AT-95E (MM) should be approx 40 Euros. The AT-95E sounds pretty amazing on a good turntable, considering its price.

To clarify, I think it is not always easy to notice ALL distortion - you can take some for granted and get used to it. Maybe Fredrik can clarify, but even if you resolve the obvious distortion that you are noticing, then the cart MIGHT still be worn enough to damage your LPs.
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Post by lejonklou »

I agree with Charlie in the recommendation of fitting a new AT-95E. It's an all time classic and better performing than the AT-110E that you have now.

I remember testing them way back, expecting the slightly more expensive AT-110E to perform better. But I found it worse, both on low weight Thorens arms and heavier arms like Rega RB300.
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Post by Paaf »

I noticed that the blue plastic part of the cartridge was not fit tightly to the other part. I thought that might be a source of distortion, however pressing them tight together made the distortion increase slightly. Surprise!

Suppose I want to get it perfectly fixed in Stockholm, where should I take it? One idea is to find a place to buy a new cartridge, and ask them to fit it in for me, including all the settings too, but not sure if possible.

For reference, some photos of a Systemdek:

The screw for fixation of headshell to arm:
Image

[Edit: potentially misleading photos removed.]

I think this is the same arm:

Image

EDIT:
Does the fact that the blue was not tight to the rest indicate that the screw seen in this photo needs to be tightened?
Image
Last edited by Paaf on 2012-03-01 02:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by lejonklou »

Good job with the pictures!

The headshell fixation looks real cheap. Probably the tightness of that screw will affect performance.

The arm height is adjustable, from the hole on the side. That's good news! And the arm's vertical bearings are adjustable too.

Don't touch the screw on the stylus assembly.

You know that my lab is in Uppsala, don't you? Give me a call if you happen to pass by.
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Post by Paaf »

That's very kind of you. I rarely go to Uppsala, I used to maybe once a year for training, but it is now even more rare since my car left this world for a better place... :)

I will find a screwdriver fitting the headshell. As tight as possible?

I understand VTA better now after some googling. I see two holes on the photo, one on the right side on the lowest part of the base, and one on the back on the next part of the base, which one does what?

What does arm's vertical bearings do, and how does one change it, if at all?

(I have to find a manual!)
Last edited by Paaf on 2012-03-01 01:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Paaf »

I did the balancing and cartridge alignment all over, now I think it is aligned well. Still distortion on the "problem tracks".

For some reason now it also sounds darker, less highs, etc.

The photos above were from the net of a tonearm similar to mine. The following photos are taken by me today.

The whole arm:
Image

Headshell screw (tightened hard this evening):
Image

Can you see if I have to change my VTA?
Some part is supposed to be level with the record, but I don't know if it's the front most part of the blue, or the backer part of the blue, or the metal part.
Image

Two wholes in the base, which one is for VTA?
Image

Close up on the stylus, I suppose this isn't enough to see if it is worn out?
(Sorry, it's the best I can do with a pocket camera!)
Image
Image
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Post by Paaf »

Borrowing a "vattenpass" from work, I discovered the table was way off level, and that problem has now been rectified. I was sure it would affect the sound but oddly it turns out there is no difference. Sounds great on most records, and on a few records it distorts typically the last or 2nd last track of those records. "Same same".

Unless you suspect it could be the VTA, I think I'm ready to give up.

I found the AT95 on Ebay for £30 incl postage. I was told that the new Ortofon 2M Red is a lot better, would you agree? Any Linn cartridge to consider? I'm not overly price sensitive but very likely my cheap TT won't do an expensive cartridge justice anyway.

Thank you
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Post by Charlie1 »

Paaf wrote:Borrowing a "vattenpass" from work, I discovered the table was way off level, and that problem has now been rectified. I was sure it would affect the sound but oddly it turns out there is no difference. Sounds great on most records, and on a few records it distorts typically the last or 2nd last track of those records. "Same same".

Unless you suspect it could be the VTA, I think I'm ready to give up.

I found the AT95 on Ebay for £30 incl postage. I was told that the new Ortofon 2M Red is a lot better, would you agree? Any Linn cartridge to consider? I'm not overly price sensitive but very likely my cheap TT won't do an expensive cartridge justice anyway.

Thank you
Just make sure the AT95E is brand new. No point saving a few quid on a 2nd hand one.

Unless you plan to upgrade the deck to Linn in future, then the £300 Linn Adikt seems overkill to me and a waste. You'd be better off spending the money elsewhere. Can't comment on the Ortofon.

Note there is a hierarchy within Linn turntables which I'd expect to apply to yours, at least reference musicality there is. So, the deck itself is more 'musically' important than the arm and the arm is more 'musically' important than the cartridge. It's useful to know when it comes to allocating funds to various elements of the deck.
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Post by lejonklou »

Regarding the cartridge: the recommendation of something else is typical, there will always be a new model that shops sell and recommend, and owners claim is much better. When you return after a couple of years, there will be a new one that is "much better" than AT-95E. Interestingly the AT-95E remains and the other ones keep changing.

Ortofon has made about a thousand cartridge models that have always been completely random in performance. While a few have been reasonably good, like the Kontrapunkt A, others have been terrible. The worst cartridge I have ever listened to is the Ortofon Turbo MC. While I haven't heard the Red, it's predecessors were very common carts on cheap to medium priced turntables. And replacing them with an AT-95E was always a major improvement.

In the world of HiFi, you will have to get used to the fact that most people don't know what they're talking about. They usually pretend they do, however.

Regarding the distortion appearing on inner tracks, this could be a sign that the alignment is wrong. Or it could be due to a combination of things being less than optimal: turntable, arm, cart alignment, stylus etc.
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Post by Paaf »

Hehe, I have noticed the same phenomenon in other topics of interest as well.

Just before ordering: is it better to get a new AT95E whole cartridge, than to just get a new stylus for AT110E even if the latter would be cheaper?

(I am asking if the stylus part of the cartridge is the only one that ages.)
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Post by lejonklou »

Paaf wrote:is it better to get a new AT95E whole cartridge, than to just get a new stylus for AT110E even if the latter would be cheaper?
Yes, because the AT-95E is better and I imagine the difference in price is very small.

If you don't get rid of the distortion, you could always start looking for a second hand Linn Basik turntable. Likely a big upgrade to a small price. If there's an old Linn K5 or K9 cartridge on it with worn stylus, your AT-95E stylus will fit the K5 and K9 bodies.
(I am asking if the stylus part of the cartridge is the only one that ages.)
The stylus part is the only one that ages, yes.
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Post by Charlie1 »

I just remembered that I still have my old K9, purchased approx 1989. Never thought of selling it before, but just looked up ebay sales and it varies from £5 to £65. I have the original packaging of card box and inner plastic box. Stylus is worn of course, but it was very well looked after. If it will fit your arm and Fredrik thinks K9 body + AT-95E stylus is better than all new AT-95E, then by all means PM me with an offer if you're interested Paaf.
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Post by Paaf »

Actually more than twice the price but..

AT110E stylus 140 SEK, item 130627650139, $20, USA, incl postage
AT95E cartridge 315 SEK, item 200510112265, £30 Germany, incl postage (and yes "£" :))
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Post by Charlie1 »

I think I best take that as a 'no' then :O)
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Post by Paaf »

I was waiting for a response to your indirect question to Fredrik. :)
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Post by lejonklou »

Yes, K9 with an ATN-95E stylus was better than an AT-95E when I tried it years back. Perhaps the main benefit is that the K9 body is made of metal, which allows a better coupling to the headshell. On Paaf's current turntable, this might not matter much.

It does look a bit funny with the ATN-95E on the K9 body, as the parts don't fit visually.

Come to think of it, I might have an old K9 myself somewhere.
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