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New Keltik midrange unit
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poppop
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PostPosted: 2007-12-01 00:41    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Kevin,

I have, at last, had everything running for about 3 days now, having had the Kinos returned early week after its second visit to Linn.

I am VERY pleased with how everything is sounding - I had thought the keltiks would be something to try and then possibly sell. I really think they will be around for a while!? Like you I had 350's for about 6 months and feel more comfortable with the keltiks - certainly for the time being.

Anyway, regarding the mid range saga! The Monacors referenced previously are in and running. They sound very capable compared with the 7/6's(?). So much so Ive cancelled the order with Linn(still not available for delivery at time of writing) for the replacement pack. If I ever become disastisfied with them or they break or Im desparate for a change - I can always order the Peerless kit in the future.

Kevin another consideration with the Monacors is; they are a better size and need no alteration to the cabinet. They do need some thought regarding a gasket as, like the Peerless drivers they also have a
flange "lip" that needs to be sealed somehow - I used some very flexible "rubbery" maerial used to fit double gazing! - I thought that would help to keep the sound transparent!!

Ive kept hold of the original mid ranges just in case I fancied getting them reconed in the future.

If you do hang out for the Linn kit, do let me know your impressions.For the price and relative ease of fixing its always nice to experiment!

Good luck.
Steve.
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poppop
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PostPosted: 2007-12-19 00:31    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frederik, Thomas, et al.

Just a curiosity question. Now I have the Monacor mids fitted, and personally liking them better than what was present before, I was wondering if its possible to go yet another step?

As discussed in the thread, Linn have sourced a midrange/mid.woofer which is supplied as a pack to alter the cabinet to make fit. Both the Monacor and Peerless units retail around 30 - 60 ish. IF an alteration could be made to try a fairly top reference mid. like scanspeak etc which appear to retail around 150 - 200 would further improvements be possible?

IF this was tried as an experiment what are the significant parameters that should be aligned - ohms, sensitivity(85 - 89 seems to be the range), resonant frequency and a whole myriad of other numbers!! Which are important? Would anyone have a specific quality reference speaker in mind that should be tried. I wondered if it was easier to try this on a fully active speaker like the Keltik, as its possible to adjust the treble and bass to "tune" with the mid.

OR would you be more comfortable just saying "sod off and stop messing with things you dont undestand, and just listen to them"!!? LOL. I dont mind the soldering and a bit of minor woodwork!

Thank you.
Steve.
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lejonklou
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PostPosted: 2007-12-19 14:28    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sod off!

No, just kidding. :) You are correct that the active configuration makes this kind of experiment much easier. You can forget about the electrical parameters that would otherwise require a complete rebuild of the passive crossover.

It will still be tricky, however. Not only must the new drive unit work with the volume of air you have in the Keltik mid cavity, but there is also no guarantee that the more expensive units will work well together with the other units or even by themselves.

My guess is that you will find it interesting, but that it will be difficult to obtain a real improvement. As with any audio project, you need

1) A reliable evaluation method
2) Lots of endurance*
3) Knowledge of the technology involved

* Count on it requiring twice as much trial and error in the next order. If you think it'll take one week, it will take 2 months. If you think it'll take 1 month, it'll take 2 years etc. :mrgreen:
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poppop
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PostPosted: 2007-12-19 15:14    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Fredrik,

I guess Im just displaying another shade of "upgradeitis". IF a 30 - 40 driver sounds like this, and Im guessing that the recommended peerless in the same price range will be similar, then a 200 driver MUST be better!

On your "checklist" I could cope with number 2. But Id be a bit weak on 1&3 LOL. That said I guess it would be possible to do one speaker at a time using the same channel, at least then there is a reference for comparison.

Its a fun thought! Let me get the Akurate DS going in January, and working properly, and maybe come spring it will be time to have another fiddle!

Thanks.

Steve.
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Komri
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PostPosted: 2007-12-23 14:41    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anything news to this subject and the "kit"?

...and a Merry Christmas to you all!
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poppop
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PostPosted: 2007-12-23 22:03    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Komri,

The packs are available to order now from Linn dealers.(c. 140??) Ive seen the install sheet, and it seems very straight forward to do the alteration.

Perhaps Kevin will report back on sound quality once he has his installed.

Steve.
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alrad2002
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PostPosted: 2008-01-13 01:23    Post subject: Anything new to report? Reply with quote

Hiya folks,

Anyone had a chance to test out the Peerless replacement kit yet?

Cheers!

allen
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Broccoli
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PostPosted: 2008-01-14 10:42    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have received one but not installed it yet. It will be hard for me to give any impression regarding if it's an improvement, because I will replace the tweeters at the same time, and have my dealer over for system trimming.

What I can tell you though, is that you need to drill in your Keltiks to mount the driver! Doesn't seem too hard, but I'm a little worried about getting the holes perfectly vertical. Though I guess you can always fill the holes and make new ones if you fail completely.
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Broccoli
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PostPosted: 2008-01-29 10:55    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now I've installed it. I really didn't like the idea of drilling in my Keltiks, but it went fine.

It sounds very good, but besides changing the midrange I also changed the tweeters and had the system tweaked by my dealer (speaker position, filters). So I guess I can't really say if the new midrange is an improvement, but they are at least good enough to make my system sing!
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alrad2002
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PostPosted: 2008-02-07 09:04    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sweet! Just got word that the replacement kit is now available in Australia, so I may be ordering my kit soon........

Thanks for the update Broccoli!

Cheers!

allen
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monkeydevil
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PostPosted: 2010-01-11 12:21    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi guys!
OK, it has been more than two years since this replacement kit was made available.

Has anyone heard this new midrange unit and can comment on its performance?

As much as I love my newly bought Keltiks, I am beginning to understand that the Keltik mid is probably the weak link in this otherwise great speaker. A bit muddy to my ears on certain recordings, such as Deja Vu with CSN&Y. Would be great if it really is an upgrade compared to the original midrange.

Somebody here must have heard it and have an opinion!
I know Broccoli here got it, but he stated he made other changes at the same time. Still, your comments are welcome as well Broccoli!

All the best,
Jens
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MRTweak
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PostPosted: 2010-01-11 21:55    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello monkeydevil.
Congrats to your "new" Keltiks.

Since I've lived with this very "picky" and "vibrating everything in the room" loudspeakers for many years i know for a fact that "muddy midrange" is not a speaker problem.

You got to take care of vibrations and make a proper "Foundation first installation" or you will never hear what lovely music they are capable of.

Beside that they also really likes a bit of power, at least four Klouts per channel or better :mrgreen:

I really loves mine now, but it took a lot of time, money and effort to make them "pleased" and for them to give me goose pimples, again and again :lol:
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monkeydevil
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PostPosted: 2010-01-12 12:02    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello MRTweak!

I certainly have noticed that you are an avid advocate for Foundation First!

I don't doubt the relevance of that. But in my current setup, the source (ADS), pre (Exotik) and poweramps (2 x 5125) are placed the same way as when I had my Katans, and back then I didn't notice any muddy mid. Are Keltiks more sensitive about the placement of the gear? And maybe I should check possible vibrations in the room? A few pointers would be great!

Regarding the new midrange, I posted the same question as above over at Linn's and got this reply from "Philbo" (Philip Hobbs?):
Quote:
I can assure you that the replacement midrange unit is 'official'; there is nothing unofficial about it. As far as sound goes I personally prefer the new unit, but not by a country mile. The unit was only sourced as a replacement and though many may prefer the sound it was never intended as an 'upgrade', only as a replacement to keep our longstanding Keltik customers happy.
Interestingly most people who have performed the replacement (predominantly retailers) have complained about the 'flimsy' design of the unit compared to the original. This is true enough as it has a pressed steel chassis rather than the more robust cast chassis' of the original unit. However, once firmly secured to the cabinet the chassis is plenty strong enough for a midrange unit. The benefit of this 'cheaper' chassis is that proportionally more of the money can be spent on the motor and cone.

Anyway, I digress... It is official

Phil.

Link: http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=5470&pid=54718#pid54718

So he avoids claiming anything about it being an upgrade in line with Linn's policy, but still answers the question whether it is better than the original unit.
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alrad2002
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PostPosted: 2010-01-12 12:41    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Jens,

To be honest, it took me several months to actually purchase the Keltik mid replacement pack, however I've not done anything with it since as it's been hard for me to come to terms with drilling holes in my perfectly good speaker cabinets. As it turns out, my right mid driver finally gave out last week (taking a Klout channel with it :cry: ), so now I've no choice but to press on with the open Keltik surgery.

Will post here my thoughts after a couple of weeks......once I get the driver replaced and the Klout fixed.

As for your placement question, I wouldn't say that the Keltiks are particularly sensitive to the placement of sources/preamps/amps/etc., but can be quite sensitive as far as their own placement is concerned. In my room, for example, I have a nasty notch at about 100-120 Hz, leaving some recordings sounding a bit thin. My current arrangement has the Keltiks evenly spaced out along the short wall in the room, which I don't think is helping my situation any. I'd like to experiment a bit and rearrange the room to put the speakers on the longer wall, but since we may be moving in a couple of months I think I'll just put up with it as is for now. I had them along the short wall in our previous house, however they were sitting on floorboards which seemed to actually give the low end quite a boost.....I even wound up turning the bass level down a notch on the bass Aktiv cards. Now they're sitting on concrete, so I have a cleaner and tighter bass sound...........but I have to admit I kind of miss the extra thump I got from those floorboards! :wink:

Cheers!

Allen
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MRTweak
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PostPosted: 2010-01-12 17:17    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Jens, you say that you did not have any "muddy midrange" problems with Katans...
Well where to start?
I am not at all surprised with that fact. (I also own a pair of Katans)
Think of Keltiks as a pair of Tukans with a very big and powerful Subwoofer firmly bolted at each one.
They will "energize" the room perheps ten times more then what a pair of Katans ever can do.
I have been "fiddling" with my Keltiks since about 1993 and it is not until now that I have really started to unleash their true potential.
Do it right and they will sound utterly sublime and keep your right foot in a frenzy at the same time :mrgreen:
But do it wrong and they will tell you that as well :cry:
Since we both probably speak better swedish then english, I suggest that we talk a little over the phone, about your "muddy midrange problem".
I will send you a PM with my cell no.
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ThomasOK
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PostPosted: 2010-01-12 20:30    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I have never owned Keltiks myself I would have to agree with the statement that a muddy midrange is not a problem I would attribute to the speaker and I would not expect the newer midranges to rid you of this problem. Certainly the energy the Keltiks (and other truly full-range speakers) put into a room can cause problems with excitation of other components and the room itself. But there is another possibility.

I will have to relate this as here-say as it is not from my own experience but I was once told by our Linn rep at the time that the 5125 was not a suitable amp for driving the Keltiks or Isobariks. These speakers have pretty high current demands and the 5125 is not really a high-current amplifier. The Dynamik upgrade, being 30% more powerful than the standard amp power supply might help this but I'm not sure it would be enough.

If you have the opportunity I would recommend listening to the system with one or more Klouts or x200 amps (Akurate or Chakra) on the midrange (and preferably the bass as well since bad bass can screw up the midrange). You might find that it is the amp rather than the speakers that is the source of the muddy midrange.
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monkeydevil
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PostPosted: 2010-01-27 14:14    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Allen,

Sorry to hear about your damaged Klout. I hope everything works out for you. I am certainly looking forward to reading your imressions of the new midrange unit once fitted!

Regarding the muddy midrange, I am leaning towards MRTweak's explanation. The Keltiks really make the gear vibrate even at quite low volume. Would be interesting to test putting gear in the next room, but that would just be too much of a hassle. We're about to move soon though, and I think I am going to test that then.

In our new apartment I will look into some proper "foundation first".
MRTweak has inspired me a lot here. He posted pictures of his creation on the Swedish Linn forum.
http://forum.selleri.de/viewtopic.php?p=68447#p68447
(Hope it was ok to link to this, MRTweak?)
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Linntek
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PostPosted: 2010-01-28 21:22    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't Keltik midrange the same as the midrange in Kaber. Is the midrange in Kaber not the same as the bass/mid in a Tukan. Is the Tukan bass/mid not the same as in AV5140/Espek.

???? :D

Edit:
Found this quote on Stereophile

"The Tukan's 5.1" bass/midrange driver and 3/4" dome tweeter appear to be of high quality. The bass/midrange unit, custom-made for Linn, is also used in Linn's AV5140 and Keltik. The driver has been refined over several years, and is currently in its seventh revision."
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anthony
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PostPosted: 2010-01-28 22:29    Post subject: drive units Reply with quote

The mids on 5140 and tukan are the same,

as are mids on espek and katan

and kaber and keltik.

But none of the three are inter related.
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MRTweak
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PostPosted: 2010-01-28 22:43    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Linntek, since I'm a happy Keltik owner, I remember that late Kabers had the same "midrange" woofer (spkr 007/4 and spkr 007/5) but the latest midrange of the original design was spkr 007/6 and I think that Kabers wasn't made any longer when that midrange was delivered.

The explanation I got from my dealer, of why and what the 007/6 was "about", was that it could take more abuse from klimax solos (power) but that it didn't sound any better :wink:

Well I've got a spare pair of those, so sometime in the future I will hear for myself :mrgreen:
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anthony
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PostPosted: 2010-01-28 22:47    Post subject: keltik mid Reply with quote

Hello MRTweak, your dealer was correct regarding the 07/6, a better glue was used to make them more robust, but contary to your dealer a lot of people including myself felt they sounded better.
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