Lejonklou Boazu Integrated Amp

[TMV]

Maybe the 78 limit was a bit too clever but I'm ok keeping it but 80 is probably better.

No limit is also ok for me but then maybe the 80 limit can be a user setting (opposite vs today)? I think it's more logical and user friendly so probably my preferred solution.

And even if I would like a phono input, I like more music, energy and feelings even more. :)

Also love the no source selection with Källa and Slipsik.

I really wanted an app controlled volume in Boazu before but now I have a wifi IR device I can control from phone and this works fine!

So just more music for B2.0!

[mrco99]

Great to hear the work in progress on the new Boazu2 and your initial concept still holds its ground - no features makes for the most involving listening experience.

Assuming the 'child safety' option has no negative impact on musicality, I'd say that for those that still may want to use this option it may be good to keep its functionality in Boazu2 but have it disabled as of standard, so volume goes all the way up to 100.

If people may wish to enable the function they can still do so by pressing the same button sequence - with 80 as the better suited volume level.

[springwood64]

When listening to music, I usually stay a couple of dB below the max with the safety limit on, because that's the level that brings the most enjoyment.

So for my use, the additional available volume isn't necessary.

Also, I would not want to take Boazu up to the point where it clips or otherwise degrades the music.

Consequently, the removable limit still makes sense to me.

Having the limit in place for normal listening means the user simply increases the volume as usual, secure in the knowledge that the music will get louder without deteriorating.

If a user really wants volume to the max and it's happy to degrade the music through clipping, then they can explicitly remove the limit.

I can appreciate the merits of both defaulting with the limit on or of defaulting with it off and would be happy with either approach.

[Spannko]

Fredrik, when you say “remove the child safety feature”, do you mean remove the 78 limit and allow the amp to go to 100, or remove the ability to choose to go to 100 and permanently lock the volume at 78?

Personally, I like the idea of limiting the output of the amplifier so that it always works within its best operating range, unless adding the feature somehow has a negative impact on sound quality of course!

[springwood64]

I really wanted an app controlled volume in Boazu before but now I have a wifi IR device I can control from phone and this works fine!

I use Logitech Harmony Hub to do this job - it works well

[Tendaberry]

Maybe you could make it the other way around: the limit is deactivated as a standard, but you can activate it at 80, if you want.

[Spannko]

I suppose we really need to understand what the advantages and/or disadvantages are with limiting at 78 or 100. I must admit, I’m not sure how relevant the question is. Couldn’t the volume control be set up to max out at 100 whilst limiting the voltage output to ensure the amplifier stays within its optimal operating range?

[Spannko]

Thinking about it a bit more, my preference would be three tiered. 1) The volume control should be engineered for maximum musicality, regardless of any other considerations. 2) Within the limitations of 1, the maximum volume should be set so as to prevent clipping with Källa. 3) If someone is using a higher output source which may push the Boazu into clipping, then turn the damn thing down!

[macrotech2]

Thinking about it a bit more, my preference would be three tiered. 1) The volume control should be engineered for maximum musicality, regardless of any other considerations. 2) Within the limitations of 1, the maximum volume should be set so as to prevent clipping with Källa. 3) If someone is using a higher output source which may push the Boazu into clipping, then turn the damn thing down!

1) is a given with Fredrik.
2) No - i want to be able to use it with any source
3) Stop worrying about setting a maximum volume and leave it to the user to determine when to turn it down.

I think people are massively overthinking this. It you've turned it up too loud you'll hear it and turn it down.
So my vote is to make the limit an option rather than the default it is now.

[Spannko]

Fair enough. I still don’t understand the relevance of the question though tbh. The actual number given to the maximum volume setting is pretty irrelevant. It could be 42, 78, 100 or any number in between. Also, any number can be associated with any voltage level. So I’d say that A) The volume control should be designed for maximum musicality with B) The maximum number of levels to be determined by the minimum voltage level differences which can detected by the human ear. C) A limit set for Källa owners which can be turned off for those less fortunate.

So, why change anything? It’s just fine as it is!

[springwood64]

The actual number given to the maximum volume setting is pretty irrelevant. It could be 42, 78, 100 or any number in between.

The manual says that the volume goes up in 1dB steps from 0db to 78dB with the limit in place and 0dB to 100db with it removed.

[springwood64]

Re-reading the manual reminds me of a feature that I had forgotten, but had one occasion to use if only I had remembered it was there: the child lock:

Child Lock
Pressing both front panel VOL buttons at the same time
disables the front buttons. Boazu will then accept only
remote commands. To remove Child Lock, press and hold
both VOL buttons for 3 seconds.

I normally read manuals, but this sadly confirms Fredrik's point that people don't always read manuals. And this manual is only 2 pages!

[Spannko]

Going slightly off at a tangent. I really like the look of the latest featureless enclosures with the darker grey printing. Also, there’s been a trend with TV’s for a long time to remove any controls from the facia and put them on the side or top where they can’t be seen. I’d be perfectly happy if the volume control was on the back panel, leaving the front panel with just the led to show the volume setting. I think this would go with the Boazu’s ultra minimalistic design ethos really well too. Push buttons are so last year!

[TMV]

Agree Spanko, the current Boazu has too many features:) I would love a Bouzu 2 with the grey logo and a diode!

[Fred11]

So happy to hear about a Boazu 2! I am sure it will be a killer, even though I do not know how it is possible for it to sound better as I am sitting here listening to Källa-Boazu-Grahams Ls5/9f.
I have a more pragmatisk aproach to the question. Since the Boazu does not have a volume-knob, and I really like the solution, but it takes a little time to learn its limit, and therefor I think it is good that it has a limit. With a more traditional knob you usually don’t go beyond 12 o’clock.
Best of luck with development!

[ThomasOK]

Well, this has been quite confusing. I have to say I think Fredrik is partially the cause of this but he is quite busy so it is forgiven. I decided to start out by getting it clear in my own head so I RTFM!

The Child Lock has nothing to do with the volume levels, it disables the front panel buttons so only the remote controls things.

What Fredrik was referring to is the Volume Limit which is the default maximum volume set at 78 whenever you turn the Boazu (or Sagatun) on. This can be removed by holding the Volume + button down during startup (indicated by a quick white flash among the 6 red flashes) so that the volume can now go up to 100. The Lejonklou volume control has a range of 0 to 100 in 1dB increments (all products with a volume control except Giella ∏). The limitation to 78 is a safety feature as a 2.0 Volt input (the standard max for CD players and many other devices) will clip the amp or amp section at a level higher than this. As Fredrik mentioned the max out of the Källa has lower max output so is perfectly safe up to 80. I believe that there is no musical difference whether the volume limit is on or off as it only keeps the volume control from going higher. Note that if you (or the electric line) power down the unit it will default back to the 78 limit when turned back on unless you press Volume + during the startup sequence again.

Now, why would you want to turn it off? Because some phono cartridges through some phono stages may not be able to reach full volume at 78. Also many vintage tuners and tape decks also have a significantly lower maximum voltage output than CD players (one of the scams of CD players when they were introduced, if you ask me). Any of these might need the higher volume settings to play at the desired level. In addition many older classical and jazz recordings were cut at lower levels so the additional volume settings may be helpful.

A little story will illustrate this. A customer of mine many years ago called me and said that he loved his Sagatun and Tundra but he needed more power. I asked why and he said that on some classical records he couldn't get them to play loud enough. I asked if he could get his rock records to play loud enough? He said, oh, yeah, they play plenty loud enough. So I explained to him that he didn't need more power, he needed more gain to boost up the quieter recordings. I told him how to remove the 78 limit and he has been a very happy camper ever since.

Why would you want it on? Simply as a protection against clipping your amp. This might seem like it is not a big deal because you can hear it, but what if you are not in the room and some little fingers play around with the volume control? (I believe why Fredrik was thinking of the child lock.) A little clipping is no big deal as you can just turn it down and everything is fine. However, if you clip it a lot for a significant period of time you will BLOW UP the amp! That is a significant downside to unrestrained volume. Is this likely to be a problem in the home? Probably not. Do you want to take that risk? That is why Fredrik's question about whether or not it should be there was asked.

Finally, what is my take on it? I would highly recommend that it be left in whether it be set to 78 or 80. Why is that? Because of the use case that is not uncommon but has not been mentioned in this debate: namely dealer demo installations. Here two other factors that have not been mentioned can come into play simultaneously with disastrous results. Factor one is that clipping a Lejonklou amp a lot over a period of time will blow it up even if it is not connected to speakers. Obviously not being connected to speakers makes it such that you won't hear the clipping. This is not an unusual situation as many dealers leave the equipment powered up all the time and just connect the speakers to the amp they want to demonstrate. Factor two just makes this worse because Lejonklou use standard RC5 remote control codes. These are used by a lot of companies including Linn, Simaudio Moon, Rega, Cambridge Audio, Marantz, Philips and many more (I think Naim Audio but I'm not sure). This means that you could turn up the volume on a Linn or Cambridge piece in the same room and be turning up the Lejonklou without noticing it! Combine those two and you have a recipe for heartache. This is not just theoretical, I know of at least two cases where it happened, one in the store where I used to work.

So my vote is definitely to keep the lower default volume limit with the ability to turn it off. Maybe just refer to it as a Dealer Protection Lock. ;-)

[ThomasOK]

Spannko and TMV, you will be at least partially happy. The Boazu 2 will definitely have the darker, more grey logo - Fredrik likes subtlety and is pretty obviously the king of anti-bling! Anything in that chassis will have the Källa logo look going forward just as the TM3 does.

As to not having the buttons, I prefer they remain. While I have no problem with their removal for something as simple and small as the Superkikkin, having buttons makes it easier to be sure that the unit is working well when your batteries have leaked acid inside your remote. It also means that I don't have to run to the other room and grab a remote just to test out that volume, mute and input selection (the last on Sagatuns, of course) are all functioning properly. Lastly, without the buttons how do you remove the volume limit or turn on the Child Lock?

[Spannko]

Spannko and TMV, you will be at least partially happy. The Boazu 2 will definitely have the darker, more grey logo - Fredrik likes subtlety and is pretty obviously the king of anti-bling! Anything in that chassis will have the Källa logo look going forward just as the TM3 does.

As to not having the buttons, I prefer they remain. While I have no problem with their removal for something as simple and small as the Superkikkin, having buttons makes it easier to be sure that the unit is working well when your batteries have leaked acid inside your remote. It also means that I don't have to run to the other room and grab a remote just to test out that volume, mute and input selection (the last on Sagatuns, of course) are all functioning properly. Lastly, without the buttons how do you remove the volume limit or turn on the Child Lock?

I’m not suggesting that the Boazu shouldn’t have any buttons. The idea is that they could be placed out of sight, like many modern TV’s. They could be placed in the top corner of the back plate so that they could be easily found by touch.

[markiteight]

I’m not suggesting that the Boazu shouldn’t have any buttons. The idea is that they could be placed out of sight, like many modern TV’s. They could be placed in the top corner of the back plate so that they could be easily found by touch.

Or on the side panels close to the front. Out of sight but still easily accessible without having to reach behind the unit.

[springwood64]

I'd like to vote for the buttons remaining where they are, since I use them pretty well every day.

[Hermann]

In my opinion the limitation should remain active. It was only the test with the Graham 5/5 that made me turn them off.

At first I had slight problems with the volume setting (RTFM as Tom aptly mentioned), but now I appreciate it. With the Tundra Mono 3 and their permanently lit LEDs, I would go one step further and have the Sagatun LEDs also light up in the color of the set volume.

I also like the minimalism of Fredrik's devices and hope it is maintained and don't think it would be particularly user-friendly if the buttons were on the back of the housing.

[lejonklou]

Thank you all for your input! Much appreciated!

Thanks also to Thomas for explaining the reason why a volume stop at 78 or 80 can become a problem for someone who hasn't learned of its existence (the story of the man who thought he needed more power). Even if just streaming on Källa, I sometimes listen to albums that are about 6 dB lower than those mastered to full volume. They are usually great old albums that (thankfully, as someone often grabs the opportunity to fiddle with what was already perfect) haven't been remastered. So to play them at maximum volume, I would have to increase the volume to 86.

So the limit will definitely be raised from 78 to 80. Then there are pro's and con's to leaving the limit on as default. I was unaware about its usefulness in a HiFi shop when using multiple remotes, while in home environments I am less convinced of its merits. There was never any volume stop on Kikkin and as Superkikkin runs on the same original firmware, it doesn't have the limit either.

The front panel buttons will remain, those parts are already finished. I have one essential and a couple of less important parameters left to tune on what might be the final prototype. Then I'll try recording some clips of Boazu 1.3 versus Boazu 2.

[lejonklou]

With the Tundra Mono 3 and their permanently lit LEDs, I would go one step further and have the Sagatun LEDs also light up in the color of the set volume.

Do you mean that you would prefer that the volume indicator is permanently lit? Instead of fading out 3 seconds after the last volume change, as it now does.

[lejonklou]

Lastly, without the buttons how do you remove the volume limit or turn on the Child Lock?

Ha ha!

The Child Lock feature is activated by pressing both VOL- and VOL+ buttons. It disables all front panel buttons until you press and hold those two again.

[lejonklou]

Couldn’t the volume control be set up to max out at 100 whilst limiting the voltage output to ensure the amplifier stays within its optimal operating range?

This is an interesting thought. The way it could be done is that a sensor checks the output stage, which is driving the loudspeakers, and as soon as it detects clipping, it sends a command to the volume to lower one step. So if you have turned up far too loud, the volume will rapidly be lowered with each clipping peak until it lands on a volume that no longer clips.

I think this could be pretty useful at parties. The only problem is that I've tried monitoring the output for clipping and it has always degraded sound quality. It's really annoying, because I repeatedly modified the monitoring circuit to become more transparent, less intrusive. And it worked. But every time I completely disconnected the circuit, the music flowed freely in a way it never did with that circuit in place.

The same story repeated itself when I tried to make an automatic idle current adjuster, instead of that Trim knob on the back of Tundra and Tundra Mono. I tried very high frequency adjustments to low frequency adjustments. The lowest and slowest adjustment turned out to be the most transparent. But disconnecting the circuit and putting a manual knob on the rear panel resulted in a sense of musical relief. Like it could breathe naturally.