I have on order a Bryston 4B-SST2 stereo power amp along with a pair of ProAc Response D30R floorstanding speakers.
The rest of my system includes the EMM Labs PRE2 Reference pre-amp, Rega RP6 / Dynavector DV-20X2 low MC cart combo, Linn Uphorik phono, Bryston BCD-1 CD player, Bryston BDA-2 DAC and Bryston BDP-2 streamer.
I'm now shopping around for a pair of good quality speaker cables (2 x 4m lengths) fitted with good quality banana plugs at each end. I want speaker cables that will not add any color or signature to the sound (neutral cables) and that will allow my system to perform at its best.
Reading several reviews on the Net, I'm interested in the following speaker cables:
- Tellurium Q Black + Jumpers
- Audience Conductor "E" bi-wire
- Chord Odyssey 2 + Jumpers
- Chord Epic Twin + Jumpers
- Bryston bi-wire
Comments, suggestions, experiences?
Speaker Cables for ProAc Response Floorstanding Speakers
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samurai7595
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Hi samurai and welcome here!
I can't resist answering questions about cables, because my pet hate in the world of HiFi is cable companies. I have tried many, many cables in my days - interconnects, digital and for loudspeakers - especially when I worked in retail and later wrote for HiFi magazines. I have tried for years to develop my own cables and have boxes full of parts that I've tried but not been completely happy with.
My conclusion is that any company who has more than one or two models of any particular type of cable
1) Don't know what they're doing or trying to achieve, and
2) Are primarily interested in your money.
Why? Because the more you listen, the more you realize that this market is a complete mess. Pricing is completely unrelated to cost of production. And more importantly, performance is completely unrelated to pricing. The only pattern I have found in is that the most expensive cables are usually the worst performers - the kind that can make any system sound completely confused.
I'm not up to date with the thousand current models who are currently on offer and I frankly couldn't care less. The constant change of models serves two purposes: To get reviews and to confuse (most models are seen as "not so good after all" when they've been around for a while, so they get a new name and jacket colour).
The business is rotten but we still need cables. My reference speaker cable is Linn K200 (that's K400 cut in half), terminated with Linn Knekt banana plugs. They need to be perfectly soldered to get that last bit of tunefulness out of them. Make sure you add them to your list. I've compared them and their predecessor K20 to at least a hundred others and only one had qualities enough to make me go back and forth. It was a cheap Ixos cable, which (typically) went out of production a year later. The replacement as well as the more expensive Ixos cables I tried at the same time were all much worse. So, until I one day manage to beat it, optimally terminated K200 is most likely the most musical option.
A more recent conclusion I've made is that biwiring is no good. I've so far only properly evaluated single versus multi wiring on five speaker models, but the result has been pretty much the same on all of them: Multi wiring causes separation between drive units, which makes the speaker sound bigger and more impressive, at the cost of musicality. I don't know whether this is a universal truth for passive speakers, but my current guess is that it is.
Best of luck in your search!
I can't resist answering questions about cables, because my pet hate in the world of HiFi is cable companies. I have tried many, many cables in my days - interconnects, digital and for loudspeakers - especially when I worked in retail and later wrote for HiFi magazines. I have tried for years to develop my own cables and have boxes full of parts that I've tried but not been completely happy with.
My conclusion is that any company who has more than one or two models of any particular type of cable
1) Don't know what they're doing or trying to achieve, and
2) Are primarily interested in your money.
Why? Because the more you listen, the more you realize that this market is a complete mess. Pricing is completely unrelated to cost of production. And more importantly, performance is completely unrelated to pricing. The only pattern I have found in is that the most expensive cables are usually the worst performers - the kind that can make any system sound completely confused.
I'm not up to date with the thousand current models who are currently on offer and I frankly couldn't care less. The constant change of models serves two purposes: To get reviews and to confuse (most models are seen as "not so good after all" when they've been around for a while, so they get a new name and jacket colour).
The business is rotten but we still need cables. My reference speaker cable is Linn K200 (that's K400 cut in half), terminated with Linn Knekt banana plugs. They need to be perfectly soldered to get that last bit of tunefulness out of them. Make sure you add them to your list. I've compared them and their predecessor K20 to at least a hundred others and only one had qualities enough to make me go back and forth. It was a cheap Ixos cable, which (typically) went out of production a year later. The replacement as well as the more expensive Ixos cables I tried at the same time were all much worse. So, until I one day manage to beat it, optimally terminated K200 is most likely the most musical option.
A more recent conclusion I've made is that biwiring is no good. I've so far only properly evaluated single versus multi wiring on five speaker models, but the result has been pretty much the same on all of them: Multi wiring causes separation between drive units, which makes the speaker sound bigger and more impressive, at the cost of musicality. I don't know whether this is a universal truth for passive speakers, but my current guess is that it is.
Best of luck in your search!
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samurai7595
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- Joined: 2013-08-13 15:59
Hi Lejonklou,lejonklou wrote:A more recent conclusion I've made is that biwiring is no good.
Thanks for the reply and thanks for welcoming me!
As you may be aware, the ProAc Response D30R floorstanding speakers come with 2 sets of binding posts for bi-wire/bi-amp and I only have one 2-channel stereo power amp (Bryston 4B-SST2).
Since in your experience, bi-wiring is no good, what do you suggest I do?
Should I simply go for a single wire pair and keep the ProAc binding post links or should I go for a single wire pair and replace the links with some good quality short cables (jumpers) or should I go with 2 x single wire pairs with one pair for HF & one pair LF with both pairs connecting to the same channel on the amp (e.g. spades + bananas to the same channel)?
You mention two options. The first one is single wire (which I prefer), the second is bi wire. If possible, I suggest you try the two against each other to be certain. But don't mix spades and bananas, they will differ in sound and you don't want that (and I have never heard a good sounding spade). When bi wiring, you want the two sets of wires to sound as identical as possible.samurai7595 wrote:Since in your experience, bi-wiring is no good, what do you suggest I do?
Should I simply go for a single wire pair and keep the ProAc binding post links or should I go for a single wire pair and replace the links with some good quality short cables (jumpers) or should I go with 2 x single wire pairs with one pair for HF & one pair LF with both pairs connecting to the same channel on the amp (e.g. spades + bananas to the same channel)?
As Ozzzy suggests, it might be possible to replace the links on the back of the ProAc's with K200 cable. If that results in an improvement depends on how well it can be connected. Trial and error.
Something you may wish to experiment with is an "F" connection.
Disclaimer: I have not personally done this, let alone tune-demmed it, but the information may be of use.
-----Strip, tin, and solder banana plugs to the cable ends as normal. These will go into your tweeter (or top) sockets on your speakers.
-----Measure the distance between your two socket sets - tweeter to woofer - on your speakers, and remove a section of insulation to line up with the woofer's sockets. Girdle the cable wide enough to solder a banana plug at right angle to the cable, leaving insulation on the cable between the two sets of banana plugs.
-----Solder the banana plugs for the woofer at a right angle (90 degrees) to the cable. Drilling some 4mm holes in a board to hold the plugs while soldering is very helpful here.
-----Apply heat shrink or electrical tape as desired or required to cover your work after checking it.
This technique eliminates the need for a jumper cable (and the extra joints and connections) when single wiring to a biwirable speaker. The usual bar of metal is replaced by your speaker cable, and there are no problems trying to match a jumper to your cable, nor with trying to attach both a jumper and cable to the same binding post.
I remembered reading of this on a forum years ago, with regard to Naim amps. The Naim double banana connector is at right angles inside a little box. One is attached to the end of the cable and another the proper distance away for the woofer. As both connectors are at right angles to the cable, the result forms the letter "F", hence the name (ahem). In this case, the little box for the woofer connector must be modified on the top (with a file, Dremel tool, etc.) to permit the cable to exit. If you wish to experiment with the Naim bananas, remember to first check the distance between the positive and negative plugs to ensure they match the sockets on your speakers.
The only option for tweaking this would be experimenting by tune dem to see whether it sounds better with the cable coming from the bottom or the top i.e. woofer or tweeter first.
The same technique could be used for additional sets of connections, but then I wouldn't know what to call it.
Happy experiments, and enjoy your new amp and speakers.
I'm sure others here have tried this, and may be more informed than I regarding the effect on tune and sound.
Apologies to those who found this through a search engine while trying to get your TV or radio to work.
Disclaimer: I have not personally done this, let alone tune-demmed it, but the information may be of use.
-----Strip, tin, and solder banana plugs to the cable ends as normal. These will go into your tweeter (or top) sockets on your speakers.
-----Measure the distance between your two socket sets - tweeter to woofer - on your speakers, and remove a section of insulation to line up with the woofer's sockets. Girdle the cable wide enough to solder a banana plug at right angle to the cable, leaving insulation on the cable between the two sets of banana plugs.
-----Solder the banana plugs for the woofer at a right angle (90 degrees) to the cable. Drilling some 4mm holes in a board to hold the plugs while soldering is very helpful here.
-----Apply heat shrink or electrical tape as desired or required to cover your work after checking it.
This technique eliminates the need for a jumper cable (and the extra joints and connections) when single wiring to a biwirable speaker. The usual bar of metal is replaced by your speaker cable, and there are no problems trying to match a jumper to your cable, nor with trying to attach both a jumper and cable to the same binding post.
I remembered reading of this on a forum years ago, with regard to Naim amps. The Naim double banana connector is at right angles inside a little box. One is attached to the end of the cable and another the proper distance away for the woofer. As both connectors are at right angles to the cable, the result forms the letter "F", hence the name (ahem). In this case, the little box for the woofer connector must be modified on the top (with a file, Dremel tool, etc.) to permit the cable to exit. If you wish to experiment with the Naim bananas, remember to first check the distance between the positive and negative plugs to ensure they match the sockets on your speakers.
The only option for tweaking this would be experimenting by tune dem to see whether it sounds better with the cable coming from the bottom or the top i.e. woofer or tweeter first.
The same technique could be used for additional sets of connections, but then I wouldn't know what to call it.
Happy experiments, and enjoy your new amp and speakers.
I'm sure others here have tried this, and may be more informed than I regarding the effect on tune and sound.
Apologies to those who found this through a search engine while trying to get your TV or radio to work.
Thanks for reminding me of the F connection, Sonett!
I've made such cables on order, but never properly evaluated them myself. I think this way of connecting a single wire speaker cable to a multiwire input on the rear of a loudspeaker has the potential to be better than using the standard speaker links. But there are two problems to consider:
1. When soldering a connector to the end of a thick copper cable, there is a significant transfer of heat through the copper wires, away from the soldering area. This is why high power soldering irons are necessary for making an optimal soldered joint. When doing an "F connection", the copper wires will transfer heat in both directions from the connectors which are not on the end of the cable. This is likely to cool the soldering area even more. And an optimal final temperature (I call it TLT, Tip Leaving Temperature) is important to the sound quality of the soldered joint.
2. If the connectors are close to eachother on the same cable, care must be taken not to heat the nearby connectors too much when soldering. With thick 4 mm2 copper cables and very short distances, it's easy to ruin one soldered joint while making sure the next reaches optimal temperature.
Regarding which input (bass/mid/treble/super treble) the speaker cable should enter first, the answer is the treble input. This has been the case since I first tried it in the 80's, verified by many and with very few exceptions. And on those few exceptions where a different input was preferred, I wonder if there wasn't some other problem causing the wrong conclusion to be reached...
I've made such cables on order, but never properly evaluated them myself. I think this way of connecting a single wire speaker cable to a multiwire input on the rear of a loudspeaker has the potential to be better than using the standard speaker links. But there are two problems to consider:
1. When soldering a connector to the end of a thick copper cable, there is a significant transfer of heat through the copper wires, away from the soldering area. This is why high power soldering irons are necessary for making an optimal soldered joint. When doing an "F connection", the copper wires will transfer heat in both directions from the connectors which are not on the end of the cable. This is likely to cool the soldering area even more. And an optimal final temperature (I call it TLT, Tip Leaving Temperature) is important to the sound quality of the soldered joint.
2. If the connectors are close to eachother on the same cable, care must be taken not to heat the nearby connectors too much when soldering. With thick 4 mm2 copper cables and very short distances, it's easy to ruin one soldered joint while making sure the next reaches optimal temperature.
Regarding which input (bass/mid/treble/super treble) the speaker cable should enter first, the answer is the treble input. This has been the case since I first tried it in the 80's, verified by many and with very few exceptions. And on those few exceptions where a different input was preferred, I wonder if there wasn't some other problem causing the wrong conclusion to be reached...
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samurai7595
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Speaker Cables
As a follow-up...
I've auditioned a few speaker cables and decided to get the Kimber Kable 8TC speaker cables along with the Kimber Kable Hero XLR balanced interconnects for my system.
Thanks to all that have provided feedback, it was greatly appreciated!
I've auditioned a few speaker cables and decided to get the Kimber Kable 8TC speaker cables along with the Kimber Kable Hero XLR balanced interconnects for my system.
Thanks to all that have provided feedback, it was greatly appreciated!
Re: Speaker Cables
Ok. But you didn't try any K200's, did you?samurai7595 wrote:I've auditioned a few speaker cables and decided to get the Kimber Kable 8TC speaker cables along with the Kimber Kable Hero XLR balanced interconnects for my system.
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samurai7595
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Re: Speaker Cables
Nope, didn't get to try those as I was not able to locate any in my area and didn't want to buy without an audition.lejonklou wrote:Ok. But you didn't try any K200's, did you?
Re: Speaker Cables
It only works out at £7 per metre, worth the risk, I rate way higher than any Kimber in a Linn system, and many others.samurai7595 wrote:Nope, didn't get to try those as I was not able to locate any in my area and didn't want to buy without an audition.lejonklou wrote:Ok. But you didn't try any K200's, did you?
I had a customer replace his k400 with Kimber in a Keltik system, musicality was lost, he didn't appreciate what had happened, but found he was listening far less than previously, reverting back rectified his lack of interest.
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samurai7595
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Re: Speaker Cables
The Kimber Kable 8TC speaker cables sounded great with my system (loaner from dealer as mine are on order). I got to compare these to Transparent Audio MusicWave, Chord Odyssey 2, Chord Epic Twin, BIS Audio Vivat, Signal Cable Ultra Cables, AntiCables Level 2 and Bryston speaker cables.anthony wrote:It only works out at £7 per metre, worth the risk, I rate way higher than any Kimber in a Linn system, and many others.samurai7595 wrote:Nope, didn't get to try those as I was not able to locate any in my area and didn't want to buy without an audition.lejonklou wrote:Ok. But you didn't try any K200's, did you?
I had a customer replace his k400 with Kimber in a Keltik system, musicality was lost, he didn't appreciate what had happened, but found he was listening far less than previously, reverting back rectified his lack of interest.
Besides, the only Linn component in my system is the Linn Uphorik phono and all other components are non-Linn.
By the way, after I had ordered these, I noticed that they are also featured on the 2013 Stereophile Recommended Components list (not that it really matters to me since they did sound great to me).
http://www.stereophile.com/content/2013 ... components
When making the F connector type of cable (which we have done here for some customers) I would recommend using an alligator clip or similar as a heatsink to keep the second soldering job from heating up the first one too much. Make the solder connection at the end of the cable first, then attach a heatsink just a bit below the banana plug, now solder on the second banana and the heat at the first joint shouldn't reach a high enough level to soften the solder.
Fredrik, who is a master at soldering, may have some reasons why this might not be fully effective but it was my first thought to counter possible problems.
Fredrik, who is a master at soldering, may have some reasons why this might not be fully effective but it was my first thought to counter possible problems.
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lettuceleaf
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- Joined: 2013-12-16 15:04
- Location: UK
I also have Proac's but the D18 model - they are bi-wireable so having read this post I am going to make the F connector option using a single run of Naim NAC A5 cable to each speaker with four banana plugs per speaker. I have been using the NAC A5 single wired to the Proacs until now, so I will try to report back the listening experience.