Harmonihyllan

Hardware and software, modifications and DIY

Moderator: Staff

User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by ThomasOK »

Charlie1 wrote:
ThomasOK wrote:What if you don't have a least important product? :)
I didn't realise you'd sold your Ikemi :D
Ouch! You think my Ikemi deserves the bottom shelf? Only if you are going to come over and get on the floor to put the discs in! :) I at least thought it out-ranked the Pekin although I have to say the Pekin is sounding quite good on our local Jazz/Classical station through the KK/1. I may end up having to keep it.

In actuality my Ikemi is going up for sale quite soon. A Majik DS should be winging its way to me next week if the shipping estimate is correct.
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Post by Charlie1 »

ThomasOK wrote:
Charlie1 wrote:
ThomasOK wrote:What if you don't have a least important product? :)
I didn't realise you'd sold your Ikemi :D
Ouch! You think my Ikemi deserves the bottom shelf? Only if you are going to come over and get on the floor to put the discs in! :) I at least thought it out-ranked the Pekin although I have to say the Pekin is sounding quite good on our local Jazz/Classical station through the KK/1. I may end up having to keep it.
Knowing you love your vinyl above CD I knew I could get away with that one :)
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6522
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Post by lejonklou »

ThomasOK wrote:It is obvious that Anders has put a lot of time and care into making the most musical supports and this is one of the things I find so attractive about this series of racks.
Yes, it's now 10 years since it was introduced. Since he started working on it before that, he's tried a lot of things over the years.
... Anders states clearly in the FAQ section that no comparisons have been done of these different woods.
I think what he is doing is deliberately staying away from the discussion of which wood sounds best.

Please note that Harmonihyllan Oden can be ordered without shelves. You get all the parts but need to make or order your own shelves. With this option, one could easily compare at least the top shelf of different woods. My guess is that one can then upgrade to Tor by making the thinner lower shelves of the same best sounding wood - and only order the extra metal and dampening parts.

With Mimer the situation is a little different, as the main shelf is of machined aluminium. I am not sure how much the wood qualities of the thinner lower shelf will then affect the performance, as that shelf appears to act mainly as a resonance dampener. But if it does matter, then why not use that optimal sounding wood, from the Oden shelf experiments?

If I was as concerned about the sound quality differences between woods as you are, Thomas, I might have gone down this route. Personally, I'll stick with the wood that Anders uses in his development, because I'll then know everything works as intended. As I mentioned, Anders has had problems with humidity variations and therefore always keeps track of the humidity level when doing experiments. Wool was first used as dampening material, but proved impossible to optimise as it varied strongly. The shelves are also much thinner and larger than an LP12 plinth, which makes them impossible to keep exactly flat in varying enviromental conditions. Wood properties, fastening and dampening can therefore become interrelated variables.
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6522
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Post by lejonklou »

Today a Harmonihyllan demo was arranged for two forum members, one who travelled far to hear it. A standard Quadraspire Q4 was used as a reference. We compared all shelves, from Oden to Tor and finally Mimer. And then back and forth in all combinations. All of the shelves were the latest versions.

We played on KDS/D, KK, Twin and passive biwired 242's. Moving the KDS around made the most difference, on KK it was smaller and Twin was the most insensitive to the support.

Quick summary:
Oden shelf is better than Quadraspire. Oden is not particularly impressive, but made more sense and was more in tune than Q4.

Tor is a massive upgrade from Oden! Small difference in cost, big difference in musicality. Much more fun and involving.

Mimer 2.3 is outstanding!! Both sound and tunefulness improve so much that we were all surprised. It's like changing to a different and more high resolution source when placing the KDS on Mimer.

Later we moved the KDS back from Mimer to Quadraspire Q4. We played a song by Cassandra Wilson (can't remember which), and on Mimer I thought "She's ok, trying a bit too hard, not a favourite of mine but I do understand what she's trying to say. Very emotional and that bass player is really skilled!".

After hearing the intro of the song twice, we put the KDS on the Q4 rack. Two of us burst out laughing the moment she began to sing. It sounded just like she was making a parody of herself! It's hard to describe the magnitude of this difference in words, but musically it was like going from expressing a sincere feeling to making a silly travesty.

Thanks to those who participated!
anthony
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 786
Joined: 2007-02-04 22:39
Location: UK

racks

Post by anthony »

When you state "standard Q4" I assume its not the new Q4EVO which is improved over the original.
I have heard Naim fraim and Isoblue, but for aesthetics as well as sound picked Quadraspire. I feel the Evo is an improvement over the old Q4 Would love to hear Harmonihyllan.
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Post by Charlie1 »

Fredrik, did your sessions shed any light on the importance of a rack for the DS player vs investing more in downstream components? I wonder if you got to hear an ADS on the Mimer against the KDS on a Quadraspire. If not, I presume you also have your own hunch anyway.

Like Anthony, I'd Love to hear the Harmonihyllan products. It's one thing reading about them, but would be great to experience the benefits for myself.
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6522
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Post by lejonklou »

It was a standard Q4 rack. We found that on the wooden floors, it performed best with Skeets below the spikes. It was carefully levelled and standing with equal pressure on all four feet.

We also tried Skeets below Harmonihyllan and found it to be slightly worse. This is what the constructor has said, and we confirmed it.

Music Lover has compared KDS on the floor versus ADS on Mimer. I believe he thought it was a difficult decision. Comments, ML? Although I haven't done the comparison, I am reasonably sure that KDS on a standard Q4 rack is better than ADS on Mimer.

Sounds like I need to make a trip to the UK, with the rack in the trunk! :D
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Post by Charlie1 »

lejonklou wrote:Sounds like I need to make a trip to the UK, with the rack in the trunk! :D
Yes Please!
lejonklou wrote:Music Lover has compared KDS on the floor versus ADS on Mimer. I believe he thought it was a difficult decision. Comments, ML? Although I haven't done the comparison, I am reasonably sure that KDS on a standard Q4 rack is better than ADS on Mimer.
I presume you expect this approach to change round when you step down to pre-amp level and below? i.e. Mimer/KDS/AK better than Q4/KDS/KK.
jiddu_k
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 91
Joined: 2009-06-02 17:56

Post by jiddu_k »

Hi all,

I´d like to confirm what Fredrik said about our comparision on Saturday. I travelled quite far (very cheap flight with ryanair from germany to Nyköping (Stockholm Skavsta) and two hour drive to Uppsala) but it was really worthwhile.

If I hadn´t heard the Timetable in germany before (the Timetable is quite famous in Linn circles in germany, for it is build by a former well known Linn retailer), I would never have believed that a rack could make such a big difference.

All the shelves Odin, Tor and Mimer were better than the Quadraspire and the differences going (with the KDS) from Odin to Tor and then Tor to Mimer were even more stunning. When we moved back from Mimer to the Quadraspire it was almost impossible to believe what Cassandra Wilson was singing - the tune being "Tell me you´ll wait for me" from "Blue Light till dawn". She sounded like she did a parody of herself - or on a tedious soundcheck.

Anthony and Charlie1 you should really consider to make a trip to Uppsala and hear for yourself - I´d consider this rack (with Mimer shelve for the source and Tor shelves for the rest) to be quite comparable to an upgrade in source (maybe not in every case - depends on the quality variations in devices) and a very likely better upgrade than a non source upgrade.

If you can get Fredrik to drive to the UK I will try to convince him to make a side trip to my place and bring me one. ':D'

Another thing:
The picture on http://www.harmonihyllan.se/index.html gives the impression that the Harmonihyllan looks a bit rustic - which I personally don´t like. But in real life it doesn´t look that way at all - to get a better impression, have a look here: http://www.harmonihyllan.se/odenhistorik.html
Linnofil
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 343
Joined: 2007-02-05 22:22
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

Post by Linnofil »

Harmonihyllan ("The Harmony Rack") is made and invented in Gothenburg. The birthplace of Harmonihyllan in Gothenburg (www.tonlaget.com) has them on demo in the shop. Ryanair flies to Gothenburg City Airport and I live close to the airport. I offer Anthony or Charlie a free ride from the airport and back if they want to listen to it!

But if Fredrik can travel to the UK he will most likely be able to demo it to more people. Probably a better solution for more Linn owners and possibly shop owners as well.

The performance of Harmonihyllan is stunning!
anthony
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 786
Joined: 2007-02-04 22:39
Location: UK

racks

Post by anthony »

Many thanks Linnofil for your kind offer, I will investigate flights!
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Post by Charlie1 »

Yes, thank you Linnofil for your kind offer.
User avatar
Music Lover
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1673
Joined: 2007-01-31 20:35
Location: In front of Lejonklou/JBL/Ofil

Post by Music Lover »

We have many Linn owners in Gothenburg (and two Linn retailers) so if any forum members visit, let's meet!
Would be fun visiting a few living rooms playing music.
Music Lover has compared KDS on the floor versus ADS on Mimer. I believe he thought it was a difficult decision. Comments, ML? Although I haven't done the comparison, I am reasonably sure that KDS on a standard Q4 rack is better than ADS on Mimer.
Me too.
As previously said, nobody puts a KDS on the floor.
The test was just to check how much a good rack can improve the source.
Moving the KDS from the floor to Mimer is a real "ear opener".
Apart from the musical enhancement did you notice the improvement in the sound?
Mimer has the sweet Klimax sound that I learned to love. Detailed yet smooth, fast yet relaxed = natural and real.
Mimer hasn't a typical sound as most other racks, it just plays music.
It's all about musical understanding!
jiddu_k
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 91
Joined: 2009-06-02 17:56

Post by jiddu_k »

Hi Music Lover,

you´re right - the difference in sound was very stunning as well.
We listened to a 1965 Tete Montoliu Trio tune ("Israel" from "A Tot Jazz"/FreshSound-Concentric) going from Odin to Tor to Mimer with the KDS. Each time the bassist Eric Peter became louder, easier to follow and clearer in sound. Finally on the Mimer shelve Eric´s playing was suddenly a very vital part of the music and driving the band in a way I had not heard before - at least not during the quite complex theme arrangement of "Israel".
User avatar
Tony Tune-age
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1579
Joined: 2009-12-19 19:07
Location: United States

Post by Tony Tune-age »

Are the Mimer products distributed to countries outside of the U.K. :?:
Tony Tune-age
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Post by Charlie1 »

jiddu_k wrote:If I hadn´t heard the Timetable in germany before (the Timetable is quite famous in Linn circles in germany, for it is build by a former well known Linn retailer), I would never have believed that a rack could make such a big difference.
So is it a choice between the TimeTable and Mimer? Have you made a decision yet? Just curious. And thanks for sharing you thoughts on the dem by the way.
User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by ThomasOK »

Tony Tune-age wrote:
Are the Mimer products distributed to countries outside of the U.K. :?:
Currently the Harmonihyllan or Harmoni racks are only sold in Sweden, there are currently no dealers in the UK.

While it is early to get into any details, I have been conversing with Anders for some time about the possibility of selling the series in the US. I have ordered a combined Mimer/Tor rack (which will also give me the ability to hear the sound of an Oden) that should be delivered in about a month. (Mine is a special order requiring a little longer delivery time.)

I have also been working with Anders on an English language version of the website which we hope will be ready to go live very soon. Most of the pages are done but there are a few I'm still working on.

When I have more details, both on my listening tests and on sales in the US I will post them here.
User avatar
Tony Tune-age
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1579
Joined: 2009-12-19 19:07
Location: United States

Post by Tony Tune-age »

ThomasOK wrote:
Tony Tune-age wrote:
Are the Mimer products distributed to countries outside of the U.K. :?:

While it is early to get into any details, I have been conversing with Anders for some time about the possibility of selling the series in the US. I have ordered a combined Mimer/Tor rack (which will also give me the ability to hear the sound of an Oden) that should be delivered in about a month. (Mine is a special order requiring a little longer delivery time.)
Since my Sondek is on an independent stand, my main concern would be for the preamplifier and phono preamplifier. So, a combination of two Oden or Thor shelves, and two Mimer shelves might be okay overall 8) .
Tony Tune-age
User avatar
Tony Tune-age
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1579
Joined: 2009-12-19 19:07
Location: United States

Post by Tony Tune-age »

ThomasOK wrote:When I have more details, both on my listening tests and on sales in the US I will post them here.
Almost forgot, thanks for the information Thomas 8) . I look forward to learning more about these particular audio racks :!:
Tony Tune-age
jiddu_k
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 91
Joined: 2009-06-02 17:56

Post by jiddu_k »

Charlie1 wrote:So is it a choice between the TimeTable and Mimer? Have you made a decision yet? Just curious. And thanks for sharing you thoughts on the dem by the way.
Hi Charlie1,

I will try to dem the Timetable once again on friday and report back. I had a dem 4 months ago and it was quite impressive. But as the system was totally different, it´s hard to compare it to the Harmonihyllan. The Timetable you´ve tested must have been a faulty one, definetly. I´ve never heard a bad comment about it before and a lot of people around here swear by it.
Unfortuneately both racks are quite expensive and only locally supported by retailers - so if anything goes wrong (like in your experience with the Timetable) you´re in trouble.
For me a Timetable rack would have the advantage of being better supported locally, but I like the idea that the Harmonihyllan is improved from time to time and can be upgraded. I also think that the Harmonihyllan is easier to set up and to keep in shape. With the Timetable it´s all very mysterious and I´m not sure if the sound changes when the rack isn´t checked every year or so.
It´s really a difficult decision.
User avatar
Music Lover
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1673
Joined: 2007-01-31 20:35
Location: In front of Lejonklou/JBL/Ofil

Post by Music Lover »

Has the Timetable been enhanced over the years?

According to me, the MAIN advantage with Harmonihyllan is that Anders constantly work on enhancements, learning more about what's important.
This approach is same as Linn/Lejonklou have and the ONLY way forward imho.

Anders has worked on the rack since the first release April 1999.
Following his work and compared the upgrades offered over the years, I'm seriously doubt any other rack coming even close.

And Anders going to continue enhancing the rack!
It's all about musical understanding!
jiddu_k
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 91
Joined: 2009-06-02 17:56

Post by jiddu_k »

As far as I know there have been some changes with the Timetable since the beginning in 2006/2007 (different connection between the legs and the frame, different bolts) but it is generally not upgradeable like the Harmonihyllan.
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6522
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Post by lejonklou »

jiddu_k wrote:The Timetable you´ve tested must have been a faulty one, definetly. I´ve never heard a bad comment about it before and a lot of people around here swear by it.
Hmm. Not a bad comment = it must be good. I don't think it works that way and particularly not with HiFi.

Was there any indication that Charlie's Timetable was faulty?
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Post by Charlie1 »

lejonklou wrote:Was there any indication that Charlie's Timetable was faulty?
TimeTable said my table was faulty when they got it back - suggesting it had occured during shipping out to me. I asked for details but there was no response. I am a bit surprised that it could be faulty as they are very simple constuction and nothing looking broken, but I'm not a TT expert of course and they do claim them to be very sensitive to setup.

So in my own mind the jury is still out on the TT. I know one person on the Linn forum has his entire system on them and thinks they are very musical indeed and he's not listening for the hi-fi elements, but music. Another person I know went to a demo at a German retailer that was actually held by the designer and he wasn't so impressed. I certainly doubt the TT is a 'bad' table no matter what, as jiddu_k himself also finds it musical, but until someone uses Tune Method to compare to Mimer etc then we won't know anything more than subjective comments.

One last point on the TT. I've subsequently been told that the Lingo/Radikal also needs to be on a TimeTable for them to shine. My Lingo was left on the Isoblue. I personally doubt this makes any difference when comparing using the Tune Method. But you never know - maybe the Isoblue did have an advantage cos both the LP12 and Lingo were vibrating at the same frequency or something. What with all the criticism on the Linn forum over aspects we are all happy with, such as cable directionality and DS Ethenet cables etc., I'm certainly not going to close my mind to the possibility.
User avatar
Tony Tune-age
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1579
Joined: 2009-12-19 19:07
Location: United States

Post by Tony Tune-age »

Is the Mimer audio rack difficult to set-up, or sensitive to adjustments :?:
Tony Tune-age
Post Reply