Harmonihyllan

Hardware and software, modifications and DIY

Moderator: Staff

User avatar
Tony Tune-age
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1579
Joined: 2009-12-19 19:07
Location: United States

Post by Tony Tune-age »

ThomasOK wrote:A small followup to the above report. The setup was as above except that I swapped out the Q4 Midi glass top shelf for a standard wood one. What I found didn't change my preferences but it was interesting.

For the most part the musical descriptions of the differences I heard above still held but with some small differences. The KK still couldn't time to save its life on the Q4 but in addition the wood shelf added a little deadness to the sound making it even a bit harder to follow the tune. This reinforced my previous findings that the KK was more musical on the glass than on the wood shelf. But with the Radikal the reverse was true - it was obvious that the Radikal preferred the wood Q4 shelf to the glass shelf. There were still most of the musical problems I noted above: the sloppiness of the time and all the instruments sounded as if they were being played less well with a diminished natural flow and presence. But the nastiness of the high piano notes and the cymbals was dulled down by the wood shelf removing the overt nastiness I heard with the glass shelf.

In summation there were differences between the wood and glass Q4 shelves presentation with different components preferring one over the other, but whichever material you used on the Q4 Midi the Mimer remained musically superior with essentially the same level of improvement (substantial) compared to the Quadraspire.

You certainly have conducted a great deal of comparisons with the Mimer and Quadraspire audio racks Thomas. In addition, it is very interesting that the preamplifier and turntable power supply preferred different Quadraspire shelf materials.

Not as surprising is that the Mimer audio rack sounded better than the Quadraspire, considering the price difference of each shelving unit. So, in the hierarchy of audio components, at what point does improving an audio rack take priority over improving the source, or other down stream components :?:
Tony Tune-age
User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by ThomasOK »

Time for another small update and at least a small attempt to answer the question of the importance of the rack in the hierarchy.

First off, I have not done a full suite of tests that I plan to eventually get to but I did have time for several hours of listening last weekend. As a start I gave a quick listen to the system after letting it warm up for about an hour and then checked the tightness of the posts on the Harmoni rack. Only one of the back posts was able to be tightened at all but the bottom one was able to tighten a little less than a quarter turn. As I went up each one was tightened and by the top was able to make a little over a quarter turn. There was an immediately apparent improvement in the tune from this. Things just fell more naturally into place.

For these tests I reversed what you see on the top two shelves in my photo by putting the Radikal on top and KK below it. This was to make my comparisons easier. After tightening things up I swapped out the top Mimer shelf for a Tor keeping everything else the same. I noticed a loss of tunefulness and musicality but was pleasantly surprised to find it was not as big a drop as I had expected and that it was still musically enjoyable. I'm sure most of us here have had the experience of making an improvement to their system that was so good that going back to the lesser setup is unthinkable (the change from Kairn to KK and from Lingo to Radikal both come to mind). This was not one of those cases. This was more like what Charlie1 has described in the difference between a KK and a Lejonklou Kikkin in that the Kikkin, while definitely not as musical as the KK, is a truly musical piece such that you don't feel a huge loss when going to it from the KK. It was the same for me going from the Mimer to the Tor - the Tor is still quite musical and listenable.

I then compared the Tor to the Quadraspire Q4 Midi as in my earlier tests and the Tor just trashed the Q4. There was no question of being able to accept the performance of the Q4 once you had heard the Tor. The Q4 just had too many problems including the somewhat strange ability to sound both brash and muted at the same time. It was definitely harder to follow the music on the Q4 and there was a kind of deadness to the overtones while it had a somewhat forward and confused sound. Seeing as I found the Q4 to be a lot better than earlier racks I had used like the older Sound Organisation and Target racks (and numerous racks that manufacturers have brought by for a listen - some very expensive) the performance of the Tor and Mimer are quite extraordinary. I now can't imagine having my system on less than a Harmoni rack.

So how does this tie in with the Hierarchy? Well, I have to say there is no doubt in my mind that a Radikal in standard casework on a Mimer or even a Tor would easily outperform a Klimax Radikal on a Q4. The differences between the two Radikals is pretty small from the one time I was able to compare them, similar to the improvement from the newest LP12 outer platter compared to one from the 90s. The difference between the racks is the quite large and the better units make the music much more enjoyable and the intention of the artists more understandable. I also believe that a standard Radikal on Mimer is probably better than a Klimax Radikal on a Tor, although I'd love to be able to confirm that someday. Considering the $3100 premium for a Klimax Radikal over a standard one I have to say that $2000 for a Mimer shelf starts to sound reasonable. And considering the $3250 price of a Keel or the approximately $2200 projected US price for a RubiKon the Mimer once again doesn't look bad considering the materials and machining involved. While the difference between the Q4 and the Mimer with a KK wasn't quite as big as for the Radikal, as I noted in my initial report, it still was musically important and very worthwhile. So I feel that anyone with Klimax level components really should have Mimers under source components like DS, disc players, Radikals, etc. and also under the KK. I have not yet done the comparison on power amps and understand the improvement to be less there so Tors are likely sufficient. I have also not yet compared KK on Tor vs. Mimer but plan to as time allows. For Akurate level equipment I would think at least Tor level would be a good idea and a Tor on the bottom makes the most sense in almost any setup (unless you don't mind the extra outlay for a more unified look). Here still you might find that a new ADS on Mimer will likely outperform a KDS on other racks and maybe even on a Tor (although I haven't done these tests so it is just conjecture). Considering that the Harmoni racks make everything that sits on them more musical, that they are likely to outlast much of the equipment placed on them as new models and upgrades come along, and that they are upgradeable themselves - a rarity in Hi-Fi furniture, I find them a very worthwhile investment.

Those in the US interested in the Harmoni shelves should know that I am trying my best to reduce the cost on the racks with at least the same level of quality. I am able to take orders right now for complete units shipped from Sweden but have held off finalizing pricing so far. At Anders suggestion I am investigating at least having the wood parts of the racks made here to reduce shipping, duty and packaging charges and also avoid shipping damage. I have been in talks with a potential supplier I believe is capable of building solid hardwood shelves of the quality necessary and if all goes well I should have my first samples sometime in March. However, as anyone who has tried to have something manufactured knows, delays are common. But I am hopeful that I will have a quality supply available at lower cost. Once I have this all together I will update the Harmoni part of the Nokturne Audio website and will let people here know. Rest assured that I will make no changes that reduce musical quality or build quality in order to reduce costs. The wonderful designs Anders has come up with will not be changed in the name of economy - all Harmoni racks will have to at least meet this standard.
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Post by Charlie1 »

Great report Thomas, as always.

Any ideas how a Radikal sat on Harmoni (Mimer or Tor) would compare to the AudioTech or Sunoku-Vent T? Archidea is too rare to even bother thinking about, but I thought you said the AudioTech is broadly similar to the a Sunoku-Vent T which is at least in production.

ADS on better shelf vs KDS on lesser shelf would be very interesting indeed. I would expect the KDS to always win out, but maybe not. Shame there are so few hours in a day, but anything like this is really great to read. It must be a very fine rack indeed. Mmmmm :wink:
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6524
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Post by lejonklou »

Thanks for a great report, Thomas!

Charlie, I haven't directly compared any Sunoko Vent models with Harmoni. But when I've listened to the Sunoko Vent wallshelf compared to Q4, I haven't experienced anything that is even close to the differences between Q4 and Harmoni. The Harmoni rack has a profound effect on the musical presentation, songs and performances just make more sense. No other racks that I've tried have given me those kind of Aha!'s.
User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by ThomasOK »

I do intend to compare the Mimer and Tor to a Sunoko Vent (although not a T version initially as we don't have those here yet). But I need to clear up something. The comparisons where I was testing Archidee, AudioTech and Sunoko Vent racks were strictly for supporting the LP12. Although it does sound good on a Mimer top shelf I still consider the LP12 to be a special case. The Archidee is still the best LP12 stand I have heard followed by the AudioTech. However, I don't feel either of them is even as good as a Q4 for supporting any other components. Every time I have tried an Ikemi, KK, DS , Radikal, etc. on an Archidee/AudioTech type stand I have been disappointed compared to a Q4 and certainly compared to a Mimer or Tor. There just seems to be a difference in the type of support needed. This was also brought home to me when I tried a solid wood top shelf on the Archidee and found it was distinctly less musical than the stock composite shelf despite how well it works on the Harmoni racks.

I also agree with Fredrik on his comments. Especially this:
lejonklou wrote:The Harmoni rack has a profound effect on the musical presentation, songs and performances just make more sense. No other racks that I've tried have given me those kind of Aha!'s.
This is the same kind of feeling I get from the Harmoni Tor and Mimer (I haven't yet tried the Oden but I plan to do so).

It might have gotten lost in my long initial post on the Mimer but I heard a complete loss of subtle shades of timing in the piano playing when I shifted the KK from the Mimer to the Q4! While these are subtle cues and aren't slap-you-in-the-face types of things like some obvious sonic changes, I consider them to be quite important - even vital. These parts of the performance give so much more sense of life and of the greatness of the musician and off the Mimer they were completely gone! Not just reduced - just gone! While I won't equate the performance upgrade from a Mimer with that from a Radikal there is a similarity in what they do: make the quality of musicianship much more easily audible by removal of the tendency of lesser similar components (motor/PSUs or racks) to gloss over the very fine details that let you hear this. While the Radikal does this to a greater extent the Mimer still has the same type of effect. And it is still something I consider quite important musically.
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Post by Charlie1 »

ThomasOK wrote:I do intend to compare the Mimer and Tor to a Sunoko Vent (although not a T version initially as we don't have those here yet). But I need to clear up something. The comparisons where I was testing Archidee, AudioTech and Sunoko Vent racks were strictly for supporting the LP12. Although it does sound good on a Mimer top shelf I still consider the LP12 to be a special case. The Archidee is still the best LP12 stand I have heard followed by the AudioTech. However, I don't feel either of them is even as good as a Q4 for supporting any other components. Every time I have tried an Ikemi, KK, DS , Radikal, etc. on an Archidee/AudioTech type stand I have been disappointed compared to a Q4 and certainly compared to a Mimer or Tor. There just seems to be a difference in the type of support needed.
Thanks Thomas. I understand. I definitely want one, especially after your last post and additional comments on the benefits.

BTW, It's particularly useful to know that the Harmoni Mimer is a much better investment than Klimax Radikal - just so long as the gap between Akurate and Klimax doesn't grow too much as the result of a Mimer shelf :roll:
Lejonklou wrote:Charlie, I haven't directly compared any Sunoko Vent models with Harmoni. But when I've listened to the Sunoko Vent wallshelf compared to Q4, I haven't experienced anything that is even close to the differences between Q4 and Harmoni.
Thanks Fredrik. I guess Anders has been asked about making a Harmoni wall shelf a few times. What's his view on that?
User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by ThomasOK »

As far as I know, Anders doesn't currently plan on a wall shelf but he has been experimenting with a platform, based on the Mimer design, intended to be put on top of a Quadraspire wall shelf. He is beta testing a sample and has a news page on it here:

http://www.harmonihyllan.se/mimer-iso.html

If he can get this to work to his satisfaction I can see it also working on top of regular furniture or built-in cabinets when regular Hi-Fi racks are not acceptable.

It is my hope to eventually be able to offer a really good wall shelf but I wouldn't hold my breath for it if I were you. I have to get other things working well at Nokturne Audio before I can tackle anything else.
minge
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 89
Joined: 2009-01-15 11:23

Post by minge »

ThomasOK wrote:As far as I know, Anders doesn't currently plan on a wall shelf but he has been experimenting with a platform, based on the Mimer design, intended to be put on top of a Quadraspire wall shelf. He is beta testing a sample and has a news page on it here:

http://www.harmonihyllan.se/mimer-iso.html

If he can get this to work to his satisfaction I can see it also working on top of regular furniture or built-in cabinets when regular Hi-Fi racks are not acceptable.

It is my hope to eventually be able to offer a really good wall shelf but I wouldn't hold my breath for it if I were you. I have to get other things working well at Nokturne Audio before I can tackle anything else.
Having my Lp12 on a Harmonihylla Mimer on the top and i think it sounds great and putting my KDS on 2nd shelf on a Mimer instead of 1st shelf did not do so much difference?

Mike
jiddu_k
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 91
Joined: 2009-06-02 17:56

Post by jiddu_k »

ThomasOK wrote: So I feel that anyone with Klimax level components really should have Mimers under source components like DS, disc players, Radikals, etc. and also under the KK. I have not yet done the comparison on power amps and understand the improvement to be less there so Tors are likely sufficient. I have also not yet compared KK on Tor vs. Mimer but plan to as time allows. For Akurate level equipment I would think at least Tor level would be a good idea and a Tor on the bottom makes the most sense in almost any setup (unless you don't mind the extra outlay for a more unified look). Here still you might find that a new ADS on Mimer will likely outperform a KDS on other racks and maybe even on a Tor (although I haven't done these tests so it is just conjecture). Considering that the Harmoni racks make everything that sits on them more musical, that they are likely to outlast much of the equipment placed on them as new models and upgrades come along, and that they are upgradeable themselves - a rarity in Hi-Fi furniture, I find them a very worthwhile investment.
After all the praise from ThomasOK and Fredrik I´d like to point out that my Harmoni rack (1 Mimer, 3 Thor, waxed birch, newest version) is for sale in market section - if someone is interested please contact me.
User avatar
Tony Tune-age
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1579
Joined: 2009-12-19 19:07
Location: United States

Post by Tony Tune-age »

ThomasOK wrote:As far as I know, Anders doesn't currently plan on a wall shelf but he has been experimenting with a platform, based on the Mimer design, intended to be put on top of a Quadraspire wall shelf. He is beta testing a sample and has a news page on it here:

http://www.harmonihyllan.se/mimer-iso.html

If he can get this to work to his satisfaction I can see it also working on top of regular furniture or built-in cabinets when regular Hi-Fi racks are not acceptable.
That's interesting, would the new platform shelf work on a standard Quadraspire audio rack or on a turntable stand :?:
Tony Tune-age
User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by ThomasOK »

Tony Tune-age wrote:
ThomasOK wrote:As far as I know, Anders doesn't currently plan on a wall shelf but he has been experimenting with a platform, based on the Mimer design, intended to be put on top of a Quadraspire wall shelf. He is beta testing a sample and has a news page on it here:

http://www.harmonihyllan.se/mimer-iso.html

If he can get this to work to his satisfaction I can see it also working on top of regular furniture or built-in cabinets when regular Hi-Fi racks are not acceptable.
That's interesting, would the new platform shelf work on a standard Quadraspire audio rack or on a turntable stand :?:
It was designed to work on a Quadraspire Wall Shelf. It might also work on top of a regular rack or stand but it is hard to say how good this combo would be.
User avatar
Tony Tune-age
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1579
Joined: 2009-12-19 19:07
Location: United States

Post by Tony Tune-age »

Thanks ThomasOK, I wasn't sure how it would work on a Quadraspire audio rack either. But somebody might give it a try, to see how it compares with a Quadraspire wall shelf... :?: Could be an interesting project :wink: .
Tony Tune-age
User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by ThomasOK »

I mentioned some time ago that I planned to do more listening experiments and comparisons with the Harmoni racks. It took me a lot longer than I had hoped but I have done several more listening tests and have some hopefully interesting observations to report.

So these comparisons were made with my current home system: LP12 with Akurate Radikal/D (new case), Keel, Ekos SE, Akiva, Urika in Chris Harban Movingui plinth (still the best sounding LP12 I have ever heard and now even better with the Radikal/D) fed through KK/1/D into ATC SCM100ASL active speakers. Everything wired with Linn Silvers with original style RCAs and Linn Tongyuan power cords with Hubbell AC plugs. There is currently no subwoofer in the system but the Dynamik for Radikal improved the bass of the LP12 so much that I hardly miss it. There is also a MDS/D and a Pekin but they were not used in these tests. The LP12 is on an Archidee stand, the other electronics on Mimer shelves.

For this set of comparisons I used only the Radikal as it is quite revealing of the differences of shelves as Fredrik noted earlier. The music was from two quite different records by Steely Dan and Ben Harper. The Steely Dan LP was "Everything Must Go" and the track I used was "The Last Mall" which I think is a great song although really the only one on the album (IMHO). The Ben Harper is the live EP "The Will to Live" which I used the title track from. The Ben Harper is a live performance that is quite well-recorded with a more natural sound than many live recordings. The Steely Dan was, as is typical, a really slick studio production. Both had excellent playing by the musicians involved.

The main comparisons I sought to do involved the Harmoni Mimer shelf which I have commented on before along with the Harmoni Oden and Quadraspire Sunoko Vent (original version) which I had not previously listened to comparatively.

To start I played the Ban Harper track on the Oden and was surprised at how musical it was. It had a really nice flow and some potent bass. Having gotten used to the Mimer I was expecting a letdown with the Oden but it wasn't like that - the Oden was quite musical even though not in the Mimer league. Then onto the QS Sunoko and I had flashbacks to my earlier comparisons with the standard QS. The Sunoko sounded a bit deader and somewhat compressed. It was not as easy to follow the music and the dynamics seemed squashed in comparison. It was almost like a digital vs. analog kind of thing which I was not expecting as I know the Sunoko is quite a bit better than the QS Q4. The Oden just brought things more to life and was more fun. A couple of specific things I noticed were that the clapping at the beginning sounded canned, almost literally, as if not really in the area of the recording on the Sunoko while sounding more real on the Oden. On the Oden there was a swell of sound from the strum of the guitar that really didn't swell that much on the QS and the drums came in with more power and texture on the Oden.

Then I put on the Steely Dan and the comparison continued once again with the Oden well ahead of the Sunoko with immediately apparent gains in quality of musicianship and bass power and texture. The Oden boogied! When the Sunoko was playing I would walk up after a verse or two and lift the stylus to switch the shelf. When the Oden was playing I would literally dance up to the turntable (not a sight for the weak of stomach) and I would have to wait for a good break before I could force myself to lift the stylus! On the Sunoko there was a rhythmic drum and cymbal pattern that sounded much like a drum machine. On the Oden it sounded more like a really good drum machine with a drummer adding flourishes. Everything just sounded more real, tighter, easier to follow and much easier to get into.

So then it was time for the big boy - how about the Mimer. With Steely Dan on the Mimer there was now no doubt that this was a drummer with a really excellent sense of time - no drum machine involved (which I later confirmed from the liner notes). The cymbals, the drums, the guitars, the vocals and the bass all took on a more real quality with subtleties of playing more obvious than on the Oden. The bass was an interesting comparison on the Oden vs. the Mimer as the Oden has this potent, boogieing kind of bass quality. The Mimer sounbds at first a little lighter in the bass but after a few bars you realize that the bass goes deeper, is more tuneful (you hear the quality of each separate note better) and it boogies just as well if not a little better (meaning I danced just as much to the Mimer - even more because I wanted to listen to the tune longer). The Mimer also had a more powerful yet more subtle sense of dynamics. At first it seemed like it was a touch quieter but that mostly came from being able to hear quieter parts better and possibly less background noise making things sound quieter. But when a note was played with expression and power it was more expressive on the Mimer.

Same comparison with the Ben Harper was even more revealing in some ways. Now the clapping which sounded canned on the Sunoko and somewhat more live on the Oden sounded like it was in the room with you on the Mimer as did the guy in the audience yelling at others to be quiet! The guitar was strummed and the swell was huge, the drums came in and they were explosive. This sounded about as much like I was at the live event as any reproduced sound I have ever heard - Ben Harper was singing and playing guitar in my living room and the drummer was right there behind him - very realistic drum sound with lots of power and dynamics with no loss of subtlety (and I know what drums sound like having owned many). The percussionist playing the shekere a little to the left was clearly audible in his playing regardless of how loud the guitar and drums were - you could focus on any instrument you want and fully appreciate how well it was being played (really well in this case). When I finished the comparisons I had to go back and listen to the whole Steely Dan track (and dance some more) and listen to the entire Ben Harper EP - there was just no stopping when listening on the Mimer (even though I had other things I needed to do which ended up with me not getting to bed until 3:00AM!).

But I needed to do one last comparison bringing the Tor into the mix so I turned the top shelf form an Oden to a Tor. In comparison the Tor gave a sound between the Oden and the Mimer bringing some of the increased clarity and tightness of the bass that comes so easily to the Mimer. A couple of examples of how the three compare. The drum work that sounded like a drum machine with the Sunoko on the Steely Dan track sounded somewhat like a drum track mixed with some flourishes on the Oden, it sounded more like a real drummer with a little of the drum machine quality on the Tor and it was plainly obvious it was a really fine drummer on the Mimer. On the Ben Harper the Oden was clearly more dynamic than the Sunoko, which sounded somewhat squashed by comparison. The Tor had an even bigger and more natural sense of dynamics than the Oden and the Mimer had not only the most powerful crescendos but it also allowed you to hear all the tiny details and textures that make things sound real. The Mimer just made the whole system sound like you were there - the dynamics were powerful yet effortless and there was no strain to the sound even at the higher levels the Mimer always tempted you to turn the system up to.

To put this into a bit of a different perspective that many will relate to I have to compare the three levels of the Harmoni rack to three different levels of LP12 performance. Like the LP12 all versions of the Harmoni rack, properly assembled and sited, are unfailingly musical. They bring a smile to your face and make you wanna dance. The Oden reminds me of a pre-Cirkus LP12 with its warm, slightly fat bass that really boogies and a very musical flow. The Tor is more like the Cirkus LP12 where the bass might initially sound a bit less full but it quickly becomes obvious that it is more controlled, more tuneful, more like the real instrument and actually more fun. The Mimer is really more analogous to the Keeled LP12. The bass clarity, definition, texture and depth is taken to a whole new higher level without any loss of power and swing and the subtleties of playing of all the instruments as well as the quality of the interplay of the different musicians is much more apparent top to bottom. Cymbals have so much more of the natural sheen, ring and ping that is missing in most systems, textures of drums, guitars, saxes, voices, basses, etc. are all much more pure, more natural and more fun. Compared to even the least of these the Sunoko Vent was just a lackluster cardboard cutout of a band playing music. And since the Sunoko took on all previous comers I have heard in Hi-Fi racks and was well ahead musically, this is no little accomplishment. The Harmoni racks, at any level, are very musical foundations to put your electronic equipment on (and they even do a good job with the LP12 in the right room) and the music just gets better as you move up the levels. Now I really want to hear the latest improvement Anders has come up with for the Mimer as I understand it is even better yet!
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6524
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Post by lejonklou »

I finally upgraded the Mimer shelf on my demo Harmonihylla, from 2.3 to the new 3.1 that was released last year. The upgrade consists of changing the thin birch plane below the aluminium, to a thin spruce shelf. And at the same time, removing all the small parts of damping in between.

As Anders who makes them is usually very moderate in his comments, I wasn't sure what to expect. But Wow - it's really a major improvement! The music flows more naturally and the sound is more open and free.

As a direct result of the improvement Mimer 3.1 brought, I found it easy to determine the optimal torque of the circuit board fasteners in Tundra. Before the Mimer upgrade, I had found several peaks in performance when gradually increasing the torque. And I had some difficulties deciding which one was the best. After the upgrade, it was suddenly obvious which torque was optimal.
Last edited by lejonklou on 2012-03-02 10:48, edited 1 time in total.
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Post by Charlie1 »

Does he ever talk about doing a small one dedicated to LP12 - like AudioTech etc? Or are you just getting the performance level of the bottom shelf I wonder.
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6524
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Post by lejonklou »

It's already the best support that I know of for LP12. It goes on top of the rack.

If you don't want any more components than an LP12, two shelves are possible (the bottom shelf always seem to perform a bit worse). But two shelves is low; just 27-28 cm above the floor.

Perhaps I didn't understand your question.
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Post by Charlie1 »

It goes on top! :O)

I'm just going back to the idea of lighter is better, so just a small table, same as AudioTech. I presume the old AudioTech table was better than the AudioTech rack. Anders has learned a lot and I figured much of it would equally apply to a table design.
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6524
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Post by lejonklou »

Yes, that's an old rule of thumb: The lighter the support, the better. I think it makes sense if you pick just any random support.

But Harmonihyllan is a completely different approach. It's heavy and has been fine tuned, almost like an instrument, for over 10 years. So far it's the best support I've heard and I expect Anders to keep improving it. From what I've been told, a four shelf Harmoni sounds slightly better than a two shelf one, so "the lighter, the better" doesn't apply here.

The latest shelf, by the way, is Tor Silver - a Tor shelf with both planes made of spruce instead of birch. Apparently better than Tor but worse than Mimer. I will add one to my demo shelf later.

Anyone listened to an LP12 with a spruce plinth? I know they've been made, but I've never heard one.
Last edited by lejonklou on 2012-03-02 10:47, edited 1 time in total.
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Post by Charlie1 »

Thanks Fredrik. I hadn't actually twigged the Mimer is a heavy rack. Bit silly of me, thinking about it now. It was probably the idea of aluminium elements.
Broccoli
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 87
Joined: 2007-01-31 16:57

Post by Broccoli »

lejonklou wrote:The upgrade consists of changing the thin birch plane below the aluminium, to a thin pine shelf.
Isn't it spruce rather than pine?
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6524
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Post by lejonklou »

Thanks, Broccoli!

Spruce, not pine.
User avatar
monkeydevil
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 77
Joined: 2007-01-31 18:25
Location: Stockholm

Post by monkeydevil »

lejonklou wrote:I finally upgraded the Mimer shelf on my demo Harmonihylla, from 2.3 to the new 3.1 that was released last year. The upgrade consists of changing the thin birch plane below the aluminium, to a thin spruce shelf. And at the same time, removing all the small parts of damping in between.
Thanks for this information!
Do you sell this upgrade, and how much is it?
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6524
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Post by lejonklou »

Yes, I'm a proud retailer!

A Mimer 2.3 to 3.1 upgrade costs 1750 SEK. Which is 199 Euro or 166 GBP.
Linnofil
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 343
Joined: 2007-02-05 22:22
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

Post by Linnofil »

Reply to discussions in the Sagatun Premiere thread;: http://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtopi ... 8991#18991
I feels better if they are placed here.
lejonklou wrote:Some shelves were compared and indeed the latest Mimer K, on which the Klimax DS/2 was placed, is so good that one HAS to hear the difference it makes to believe it. The older models of Mimer are more HiFi-ish and sound great too, but the musical impact of moving a unit to Mimer K is... I don't know how to put it.
I know the feeling, hard to express how good it is.
Ozzzy189 wrote:I only hope my rack system is in a similar league as the mimer, or I'll be wanting something else I can't afford!
I have a really hard time believing any rack can come close to the Harmonihyllan Mimer, especially with Mimer K.
Efraim roots wrote:Harmonihyllan is a good product (expensive thou), but I definitely think the praise of Mimer shelves should be taken with a pinch of salt (mega expensive).
Personally I think that the Harmonihyllan is brilliant and really can't be overrated. I know we who are customers at Tonläget are used to the performance of that rack and almost take it for granted. But the performance level compared to other racks is just impossible to believe for those who have not had the privilege of hearing it. Even the cheapest Oden humiliates the competition and the Mimer K is so much better. I wouldn’t call in mega expensive, since it improves the performance of the gear and makes sense in a performance/price perspective. If you save £20k in equipment with the same performance for a £4k investment, how can it be mega expensive?
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Post by Charlie1 »

Hi Linnofil, has there been any recent consensus as to where the Harmoni fits into a system's hierarchy in terms of musicality/source first? Both DS players and the LP12 with Radikal.

I seem to recall a couple of opinions over the years, including KDS is better no matter what the support, vs ADS on Mimer can outperform KDS on a lesser support.
Post Reply