Gentlemen,
some of you already have been getting PM in the last weeks and after an audition yesterday my HiFI world is completely and utterly confused.
Let me start from the very beginning:
My current system is:
LP12 (Lingo I, Trampolin II, Ittok LVIII/b, Adikt, Sole subchassis), Slimline Kairn, Silvers, Klout (with external Spark PSU), passive Kabers, Nakamichi CD Player. 1000 Records, 150 CDs.
When I bought the Kabers (replacing Keilidhs) 5 years ago I said to my wife:" this is the speaker of my life!" but as life plays:
Due to revamping our hosing situation, the system (especially the speakers) needs to be smaller and more compact.
My ideas consider the following:
- Small bookshelf speaker
- Nice integrated Amp (+Slipsik)
- NAS -Squeezebox duet for my digital media
Of course the AVI ADM9.1 popped on my list, but as we have no distributor here in Switzerland I cannot hear them. Some of the members of this forum gave me their impressions, but in the end I cannot make a final judgement as I have not heard them...
Speakers:
What I heared:
- Katan (never really liked "her", still don't like her)
- totems (sound "hysterical" and hard, too much of everything)
- Sonus Faber Cremona auditor (nice looks but hard and without soul)
- Sonics (different models; boomy backport)
- B&W (no, not really my thing)
- Usher Be-718 (this one I really liked, but no WAF!!!)
- Zu Audio Druid Credenza (would have been my speaker 20 years ago when rock and techno was my music..)
- Vienna Acoustics Haydn Grand (fell in love with this speaker almost instantly, but such stormy emotions tend to swing back... *read below*
Vienna Acoustics Haydn Grand. I have heard them on many different electronics and I did like them a lot until two days ago.....
The dealer gave me his demo pair for home audition and I connected them to my electronics.... all of a sudden I had the impression that all they sounded was.....dull and the sweet soundstage and nice contoured bass they produced on Naim electronics at the dealer was almost inexistent on the Klout.
To top it off I took them to the ATC and CEC dealer yesterday to actually hear them on the CEC amps (which I can only recommend here, they are very musical) which have left me a brilliant impression before.....
This dealer has a very long experience (used to be Linn dealer 10 years ago and still is repairing Naim for Switzerland) and his approach is very very much based on tune dem.
So he was very curious about the Viennas and we connected them and after only a few seconds he raised his eyebrows, played a few of his tracks first and then left me to audition my CDs.... They again played a lot better it thought....So he left me listen for another 20 minutes and when he came back he asked me whether I wanted to try with another CEC amp or whether I was open for something he wanted to make me hear. I agreed and he went out into his storage room to get a pair of ATC SCM7s and connected them up to the amp.
Again he put in the same CD he started his quick test with the Viennas and I was just flabbergasted..... It was like raising a big thick velvet curtain. And, yes, It sounded better..... no comparison at all. Then I took my CDs and everything just sounded so much opener, crisper and more natural.
When I came home again I rewired my Kabers and ....yes they sound different than the ATCs....then I listened again to the tracks I listened at the dealer and now the weaknesses of the Kabers became quite apparent: The highs are a bit sharp sometimes (due to 15/5) and the high mids are pretty shut in on the other hand I have the impression that my system somehow sounds mellower, less direct and aggressive.
And sitting here and listening to Ella Fitzgerald's xmas tracks I do not know whether that ATC sound will be stressful because of its directness.
Now to the advice I seek:
AVI ADM9.1:
I had some very mixed feedback on them. Some people love them, some others think that they would never make me happy considering my existing system. Reading all this raving reports on internet forums it is just very difficult to judge what the posters level of demand is.
Speakers
Linn - ATC: Can ATCs really make me happy over time.... will their directness be boring over time.
Is there any speaker you would suggest, any speaker that I have still missed (Have not heard the Majik 109, I have some reservations with Linn, did not really like any of their newer products, they all miss what the old products used to have..)
Or just simpler:
What would you consider being in my situation the budget is around 6000 Euros???
Thanks for taking your time reading all this... wishing you a very nice Christmas... buon natale...god jul... feliz navidad...Frohe Weihnachten
Marco
Systems advice - I am truly and utterly confused....*long*
Moderator: Staff
Systems advice - I am truly and utterly confused....*long*
Last edited by mjuon on 2008-12-24 11:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Music Lover
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As I get the feeling you prefer the old Linn sound, here it goes.
Get 2 additional Klouts and active cards.
You really never heard Kaber as they should running them passive.
3 Klouts/Kaber is a classic combo and GREAT!
If you cant find Klouts/old mono active cards or Kaber tunebox, you can buy 6 channels of 200w chakra amps as Linn now sell chakra cards for Kaber (if I remember correctly, anyone that can confirm?)
A Kikkin and Lejonklous best phonoamp are also no brainers.
The rest of the 6k is spent on the source, start with Lingo II/EKOS II.
If you play your CD's, you should consider Sneaky DS.
Get 2 additional Klouts and active cards.
You really never heard Kaber as they should running them passive.
3 Klouts/Kaber is a classic combo and GREAT!
If you cant find Klouts/old mono active cards or Kaber tunebox, you can buy 6 channels of 200w chakra amps as Linn now sell chakra cards for Kaber (if I remember correctly, anyone that can confirm?)
A Kikkin and Lejonklous best phonoamp are also no brainers.
The rest of the 6k is spent on the source, start with Lingo II/EKOS II.
If you play your CD's, you should consider Sneaky DS.
It's all about musical understanding!
Thanks....
I heard many active Kabers and I do know what this sounds like....
...but this does not solve my initial problem!
...but this does not solve my initial problem!
Hi Marco
Youll get so many different answers to this. IF it was me, and the BIG issue seems to be environmental? ie smaller speakers are needed?
2nd hand purchases - 2 x 4200's = c. £3500 - £4000, 212's with stands around £2k bit less on a good day. Active cards new c. £500 2nd hand a lot less.
Sell the Klout/kabers and put the money towards the upgrade as suggested by Music Lover?
Hi Fi heaven in 4 easy steps?
Good Luck & Happy Xmas.
Steve.
Youll get so many different answers to this. IF it was me, and the BIG issue seems to be environmental? ie smaller speakers are needed?
2nd hand purchases - 2 x 4200's = c. £3500 - £4000, 212's with stands around £2k bit less on a good day. Active cards new c. £500 2nd hand a lot less.
Sell the Klout/kabers and put the money towards the upgrade as suggested by Music Lover?
Hi Fi heaven in 4 easy steps?
Good Luck & Happy Xmas.
Steve.
While I have no experience of the new ATC SCM7s I have owned a pair of the SCM100ASLs for almost three years. They replaced Aktiv Isobariks (which had been driven by 4 LK280/SPARKs and later 3 2250s) and I have never looked back. I find them eminently musical and enjoyable and I do not find them fatiguing on difficult records or discs (unless they are really bad). I have heard any number of expensive systems with Linn electronics and speakers such as Artikulat 350s and Sonus Faber Stradivaris or Amatis and I have yet to hear anything that makes music like my system does.
I also have a friend running a setup using an LP12/Kairn/Klout to drive a set of ATC SCM20s which he has had for years and he is still quite happy with them. Interestingly, he replaced Kabers with them a fair number of years ago.
My advice would be to try the ATC 7s at home, I think you're on the right track. I would also recommend trying the ATC 11s if they are not too big for your plans as another friend of mine who used to rep ATC said he felt the 11 was the real prize of the entry line.
I also have a friend running a setup using an LP12/Kairn/Klout to drive a set of ATC SCM20s which he has had for years and he is still quite happy with them. Interestingly, he replaced Kabers with them a fair number of years ago.
My advice would be to try the ATC 7s at home, I think you're on the right track. I would also recommend trying the ATC 11s if they are not too big for your plans as another friend of mine who used to rep ATC said he felt the 11 was the real prize of the entry line.
Hi mjuon.
I have now read your story above twice. Difficult one!
What I find most difficult is fully understanding your taste: I've heard the "old Linn versus new Linn" debate before, but I haven't quite understood it. I've always had the impression that people must have heard one or the other badly installed. Because in my opinion, you can make their speakers sound great regardless of age.
I think that one of the best "sound for pound" speakers Linn have made are the Katans - and they should preferably be aktiv. They are compact, yes, but as any good speaker they really need to be positioned correctly. And that could be anywhere between 10 and 30 cm from the wall, stand mounted. Which means they probably occupies as much space as your Kabers! I have tried wall mounting Katans, but it's really difficult to make them shine. The best installation was probably one where they ended up in a bookshelf. Not great, but good. And much better than screwed to the wall.
The difficult thing about really good small speakers is that they always seem to demand space. Perhaps you could describe your space restrictions more in detail? Not sure if it helps, but just maybe it might.
I have now read your story above twice. Difficult one!
What I find most difficult is fully understanding your taste: I've heard the "old Linn versus new Linn" debate before, but I haven't quite understood it. I've always had the impression that people must have heard one or the other badly installed. Because in my opinion, you can make their speakers sound great regardless of age.
I think that one of the best "sound for pound" speakers Linn have made are the Katans - and they should preferably be aktiv. They are compact, yes, but as any good speaker they really need to be positioned correctly. And that could be anywhere between 10 and 30 cm from the wall, stand mounted. Which means they probably occupies as much space as your Kabers! I have tried wall mounting Katans, but it's really difficult to make them shine. The best installation was probably one where they ended up in a bookshelf. Not great, but good. And much better than screwed to the wall.
The difficult thing about really good small speakers is that they always seem to demand space. Perhaps you could describe your space restrictions more in detail? Not sure if it helps, but just maybe it might.
More detail about my housing situation
Thank you very much gentlemen for your replies!
Here more information on the my requirements:
As my 1000 LPs will require a considerable amount of space in our living area (an open space, rectangular 4x8m, kitchen, dining and living), my wife and I have come to the conclusion that the future speakers must be residing on a low sideboard (which is does not exist yet, which will be about 250cm long and 60cm high). It is planned to have a bookshelf next to it for the records (2 towers, 5 cubic elements each).
The speakers would reside on the sideboard, the LP12 either on a low time Table on top or on a wall shelf "floating". The electronics will go in the sideboard itself.
So speaker stands are out of question as they would result in similar space requirements as my Kabers.
Frederik, as you are so much raving about the Katans and following Linn's philosophy of constantly improving their products, the Majik 109 should actually be better than the Katans. Has anyone a heard them and can give a qualified verdict?
Regards
Marco
Here more information on the my requirements:
As my 1000 LPs will require a considerable amount of space in our living area (an open space, rectangular 4x8m, kitchen, dining and living), my wife and I have come to the conclusion that the future speakers must be residing on a low sideboard (which is does not exist yet, which will be about 250cm long and 60cm high). It is planned to have a bookshelf next to it for the records (2 towers, 5 cubic elements each).
The speakers would reside on the sideboard, the LP12 either on a low time Table on top or on a wall shelf "floating". The electronics will go in the sideboard itself.
So speaker stands are out of question as they would result in similar space requirements as my Kabers.
Frederik, as you are so much raving about the Katans and following Linn's philosophy of constantly improving their products, the Majik 109 should actually be better than the Katans. Has anyone a heard them and can give a qualified verdict?
Regards
Marco
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Re: More detail about my housing situation
Is it an option to store the records in another room (small closset?)creating space for bigger speakers, or small ones on stands?mjuon wrote:It is planned to have a bookshelf next to it for the records (2 towers, 5 cubic elements each).
I stopped having records in my living room over 10years ago...
Not only better looking, you also protect the records better.
Is it ok having speakers on the wall?
I heard 109, it's a nice speaker.
It's all about musical understanding!
A couple of reflections:
The sideboard dimensions aren't bad at all. 250 cm long sounds like it will be possible for you to have adequate distance between the speakers. 60 cm height is perfect for the Katans and probably for the 109's as well. I hope that the sideboard is deep enough to let you position the speakers at some distance from the back wall, otherwise you'll be limited to a pair of Kan's. And that the position of the sideboard is such that both speakers stay well away from corners.
The LP12 will NOT work well on the same sideboard as the speakers, regardless of what shelves or isolation you have beneath any of them. Either the LP12 needs to go on the wall OR the speakers need to be decoupled from the sideboard. Now here's a mad thought: Is it possible that you could place the speakers on floor stands and these would protrude through holes in the sideboard? I've seen installations like that, where the speakers are actually on their dedicated stands, but the stands have been hidden inside a piece of furniture, that surrounds them without touching them.
Regarding the 109's, I've heard them and they are good. I haven't compared them directly to Katans, but I feel reasonably confident the 109's are better. Could be a good choice if your wife thinks they look OK. Personally I can't understand why that 2K pod is only available in silver.
The sideboard dimensions aren't bad at all. 250 cm long sounds like it will be possible for you to have adequate distance between the speakers. 60 cm height is perfect for the Katans and probably for the 109's as well. I hope that the sideboard is deep enough to let you position the speakers at some distance from the back wall, otherwise you'll be limited to a pair of Kan's. And that the position of the sideboard is such that both speakers stay well away from corners.
The LP12 will NOT work well on the same sideboard as the speakers, regardless of what shelves or isolation you have beneath any of them. Either the LP12 needs to go on the wall OR the speakers need to be decoupled from the sideboard. Now here's a mad thought: Is it possible that you could place the speakers on floor stands and these would protrude through holes in the sideboard? I've seen installations like that, where the speakers are actually on their dedicated stands, but the stands have been hidden inside a piece of furniture, that surrounds them without touching them.
Regarding the 109's, I've heard them and they are good. I haven't compared them directly to Katans, but I feel reasonably confident the 109's are better. Could be a good choice if your wife thinks they look OK. Personally I can't understand why that 2K pod is only available in silver.
Just realised I forgot to comment Steve's idea: A pair of 212.
These really are a lot better than any of the less expensive Linn alternatives (109, 140, Katan, Ninka). If you find a pair to the right price, please do give them a listen (despite the fact that you don't like the "new Linn sound").
Whether they are the best option considering your budget and other possible upgrades is another matter.
These really are a lot better than any of the less expensive Linn alternatives (109, 140, Katan, Ninka). If you find a pair to the right price, please do give them a listen (despite the fact that you don't like the "new Linn sound").
Whether they are the best option considering your budget and other possible upgrades is another matter.
Light on the horizon.....
Gents,
thank you all very much for your input.
I have now finally taken the decision for my new system and it will be as follows:
- AVI ADM9.1: Heard them twice now and for my taste they are
splendid.
I have listened to the Majik 109 i different configs and,
yes, they are very musical, BUT for me they sound
anorexic (without a sub).
+ Kinki2:
+ Squeezebox Duet.
and of course my soled LP12, which now set up well sings endlessly.
Yes, it's the kickass system once posted from ThomasOK! :lol:
Will report on it as soon as everything is ordered, installed and burnt in.
Regards
Marco
thank you all very much for your input.
I have now finally taken the decision for my new system and it will be as follows:
- AVI ADM9.1: Heard them twice now and for my taste they are
splendid.
I have listened to the Majik 109 i different configs and,
yes, they are very musical, BUT for me they sound
anorexic (without a sub).
+ Kinki2:
+ Squeezebox Duet.
and of course my soled LP12, which now set up well sings endlessly.
Yes, it's the kickass system once posted from ThomasOK! :lol:
Will report on it as soon as everything is ordered, installed and burnt in.
Regards
Marco
I listened today to a pair of Akrate 212's on Majik CD-Kontrol and 2100.lejonklou wrote:Just realised I forgot to comment Steve's idea: A pair of 212.
These really are a lot better than any of the less expensive Linn alternatives (109, 140, Katan, Ninka). If you find a pair to the right price, please do give them a listen (despite the fact that you don't like the "new Linn sound").
Whether they are the best option considering your budget and other possible upgrades is another matter.
The sound was a little bit harsh not really my tatste.
What will happen when i play those on my system: ADS/dynamik - Exotik/dynamik - 2 klouts ?
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