Hi there!
I would like to open a discussion regarding the positioning of your speakers. Knowing that it is depending on the room size and characteristics, I still think that it is worth exchaning the experiences.
So here are my settings for Artikulat 350A:
Room size approx. 40 square meters (L-shape)
Wall behind the speakers 4,5 meters
Distance to back wall 36,5 cm
Distance to side wall 110 cm
Towed in 9 cm (difference between the left and right spike)
Position of your speakers
Moderator: Staff
Hi Hugo,
Like you I think this is a vital part of the set up! I have VERY similar results, also with 350A's.
Room size: 45 square metres ( essentially a rectangle)
Wall Behind 4.5 metre
Distance to back wall 21.5 cm
Side wall 100cm
Tow in 6 cm.
Ive played with them for hours and this is the best. I would lke to try a greater distance from the back wall, but it just isnt possible in the room.I really find it difficult to move them on the slate plinths because of the weight! Tow in Im still not sure, and will play with this further.
Steve.
Like you I think this is a vital part of the set up! I have VERY similar results, also with 350A's.
Room size: 45 square metres ( essentially a rectangle)
Wall Behind 4.5 metre
Distance to back wall 21.5 cm
Side wall 100cm
Tow in 6 cm.
Ive played with them for hours and this is the best. I would lke to try a greater distance from the back wall, but it just isnt possible in the room.I really find it difficult to move them on the slate plinths because of the weight! Tow in Im still not sure, and will play with this further.
Steve.
I think it can be worthwhile sharing speaker positions to get a starting point for further fine tuning. But in my experience the values can vary considerably between two rooms that are of almost equal size.
There is also sometimes one optimal position and one suboptimal - almost but not quite as good, and usually far away from the optimal one.
Also: Sound stage is one thing, but tunefulness another... If ones uses the Tune Method consistently, the position found will usually be surprisingly good in all other aspects of performance as well.
Just my 2¢...
There is also sometimes one optimal position and one suboptimal - almost but not quite as good, and usually far away from the optimal one.
Also: Sound stage is one thing, but tunefulness another... If ones uses the Tune Method consistently, the position found will usually be surprisingly good in all other aspects of performance as well.
Just my 2¢...
That is interesting!
Frederic, I was searching for the term "tunefull" when writing my previous comment. That is, also in my mind, the most important aspect of sound quality. My current setup (36,5 cm) does not only have a good sound stage but it is also rather tunefull.
Anthony, your experiences are interesting. Did you find any rules in which cases you had which setup?
However, I will try other settings and report the results.
Frederic, I was searching for the term "tunefull" when writing my previous comment. That is, also in my mind, the most important aspect of sound quality. My current setup (36,5 cm) does not only have a good sound stage but it is also rather tunefull.
Anthony, your experiences are interesting. Did you find any rules in which cases you had which setup?
However, I will try other settings and report the results.
You have an impressive amount of experience, Anthony! I am a bit surprised by the maximum distance you have found, though, as my last pair of 212's ended up at around 40 cm from the rear wall (in a small room). Have you tried going that far?anthony wrote:...distance to rear wall between 22cm and 30cm never more.
Generally speaking, I find that in smaller rooms, the optimal distance to rear wall often becomes larger than in big rooms. Not very practical... :|
I did get similar best position also with my Akurates, both my previous 212 and my actual 242 ended up at around 36-37 cm from back wall, with minimal toe-in (3 mm.). Anyway contrarily to Akurates, Artikulats are not ported speakers so it's likely that the best distance from back wall is different, possibly shorter (in the same room).You have an impressive amount of experience, Anthony! I am a bit surprised by the maximum distance you have found, though, as my last pair of 212's ended up at around 40 cm from the rear wall (in a small room). Have you tried going that far?
Paolo
Interesting thread. The Linn reps who set Artikulat 350As up in our dem room said that they found 44-45 cm from the back wall to be the optimal setting in most rooms. I just set up a pair for a customer and found them th most tuneful at 42 cm from the back wall (measured to the point on the back) and 40.5 cm from the side wall. I didn't measure the toe in (and if i had I would just have to do another conversion from the antiquated Imperial system we use :() but it was between 3 and 5 degrees. I'm guessing it is about 5 to 6 cm. The wall behind is about 4 meters long, side walls about 5.5 to 6 meters long.
Akurates are a whole different story. Linn originally told us about 45 cm but when I went to a training at Linn USA a couple of years back they were recommending much closer - on the order of 9 to 12 cm! When I got back I tried it with our demos and found that 11.5 cm with only about 2 cm of toe in worked best in our room. That was an early pair of Akurates that were somewhat anemic sounding. Our new demos have much more power and extension in the bass end but I haven't done a set on them yet.
Akurates are a whole different story. Linn originally told us about 45 cm but when I went to a training at Linn USA a couple of years back they were recommending much closer - on the order of 9 to 12 cm! When I got back I tried it with our demos and found that 11.5 cm with only about 2 cm of toe in worked best in our room. That was an early pair of Akurates that were somewhat anemic sounding. Our new demos have much more power and extension in the bass end but I haven't done a set on them yet.
Frederik wrote,
"There is also sometimes one optimal position and one suboptimal - almost but not quite as good, and usually far away from the optimal one"
Couldnt agree more! with my 212s, I actuall found ideal location to be 35cm, however a "close" secondary location was close to 85cm!!! Im sure this has something to do physics, wavelengths, etc...but found it interesting. are all linn speaker users, specifically akurate owners, toeing in their speakers?
"There is also sometimes one optimal position and one suboptimal - almost but not quite as good, and usually far away from the optimal one"
Couldnt agree more! with my 212s, I actuall found ideal location to be 35cm, however a "close" secondary location was close to 85cm!!! Im sure this has something to do physics, wavelengths, etc...but found it interesting. are all linn speaker users, specifically akurate owners, toeing in their speakers?
lp12, Keel, K Radikal, Urika, EkosSe/1 Kandid KK1/D, JBL 708p
Linn Pekin
Linn Pekin
Toe in or not toe in...
...that´s the question!
It is allways interesting to share information regarding speaker tuning.
I can really underline what Fredrik said - every room differs. It is like starting to paint a masterpiece - were to start?
I would say zero toe in and with the speaker placed were they look good! Not symmerical to side walls and better to have them a little close together when finding distance from back wall.
Regarding the Akurates I am sure they should be set up with zero toe in (at least at my home) or with a very modest (2-5mm) toe in. Distance to wall 38,9cm.
Artikulates seem to perform ok with a lot of toe 5-9cm but when I heard the perform best they were set up with like 3cm.
Keep moving (your speakers...) / Zed
It is allways interesting to share information regarding speaker tuning.
I can really underline what Fredrik said - every room differs. It is like starting to paint a masterpiece - were to start?
I would say zero toe in and with the speaker placed were they look good! Not symmerical to side walls and better to have them a little close together when finding distance from back wall.
Regarding the Akurates I am sure they should be set up with zero toe in (at least at my home) or with a very modest (2-5mm) toe in. Distance to wall 38,9cm.
Artikulates seem to perform ok with a lot of toe 5-9cm but when I heard the perform best they were set up with like 3cm.
Keep moving (your speakers...) / Zed
Welcome to the forum, ChrBea!
In my opinion, the starting point for ANY speaker is as close to the wall as possible, about 1.7 m apart and no toe in. Then use the Tune Method and a consistent method for evaluating those three parameters (distance from back wall, distance apart and toe in).
There are no universal "starting points" that will help you find the best position, because every room is different.
Although I previously had a slightly more liberal view on the sharing of recommended measurements, I've come to realise they can just as easily become an obstacle in the way of optimising the positioning. Why? Because some settle for numbers that don't work very well at all, instead of spending an hour getting a much better result.
Once again just my 2 cents. On second thoughts, make that 4.
In my opinion, the starting point for ANY speaker is as close to the wall as possible, about 1.7 m apart and no toe in. Then use the Tune Method and a consistent method for evaluating those three parameters (distance from back wall, distance apart and toe in).
There are no universal "starting points" that will help you find the best position, because every room is different.
Although I previously had a slightly more liberal view on the sharing of recommended measurements, I've come to realise they can just as easily become an obstacle in the way of optimising the positioning. Why? Because some settle for numbers that don't work very well at all, instead of spending an hour getting a much better result.
Once again just my 2 cents. On second thoughts, make that 4.
Speaker Positioning
One thing I have found very useful for my Isobariks is a method taught to me by a sound recording engineer, is to find the most muiscal position from the back wall and it has always varied in every room and in every house I have had, whether with the three pairs of Briks I have had or the two pairs of Kans and one pair of Saras. Currently this is exactly 7.5 cm in my living room from the back wall. Then to extract the last ounce I measure along the side wall at that chosen measurement and then run a very tight string from one side wall to the other wall and then check that measurement is still exact. I now have a very accurate front plane. Now I adjust both speakers until again their fronts just touch the string. Then I adjust the front face of the speaker for vertical level ensuring that it keeps just in contact with the string. Now I lock everything up tight.
What this does is ensure that both baffles are perfectly in plane. This has always made a massive difference in tune ability and just as importantly image and soundstage. It's quite uncanny the difference it makes.
It has always seemed ironic to me that manufacturers go to such lengths to ensure 30db separation and 1db channel balance only for us dumb schmucks as end users to muck it up by not equalising the plane of sound.
Every time I have done this whether to my system or friends it has reaped instant and massive benefits. Not sure how you adapt it for toe in. But try it.
Sammy
What this does is ensure that both baffles are perfectly in plane. This has always made a massive difference in tune ability and just as importantly image and soundstage. It's quite uncanny the difference it makes.
It has always seemed ironic to me that manufacturers go to such lengths to ensure 30db separation and 1db channel balance only for us dumb schmucks as end users to muck it up by not equalising the plane of sound.
Every time I have done this whether to my system or friends it has reaped instant and massive benefits. Not sure how you adapt it for toe in. But try it.
Sammy
I like the way of thinking.
I just now used a modification of that method to check my alignment. I used a laser that projects a line. Measured a distance slightly in front of the speakers on each side wall and positioned the laser. The distance from the line to the outside front corners was the same. The distance from the inside front corners also matched.
This was much easier than measuring to the back wall from the rear of the speakers for me. In my room I have an irregular back wall with fireplace and bookshelves. Measuring 1-3 inches to a straight line vs. 30 some to asymmetric reference points.
I did not make any adjustments to my position as it all just fell into place.
Fantastic tip.
Thanks.
I just now used a modification of that method to check my alignment. I used a laser that projects a line. Measured a distance slightly in front of the speakers on each side wall and positioned the laser. The distance from the line to the outside front corners was the same. The distance from the inside front corners also matched.
This was much easier than measuring to the back wall from the rear of the speakers for me. In my room I have an irregular back wall with fireplace and bookshelves. Measuring 1-3 inches to a straight line vs. 30 some to asymmetric reference points.
I did not make any adjustments to my position as it all just fell into place.
Fantastic tip.
Thanks.
Speaker Positioning
Your'e very welcome. It's a great hobby isn't?
Sammy
Sammy