More on source first and other priorities

[Spannko]

There are frequent recorded guitar parts that cannot be reproduced by a perfectly tuned guitar (If measured by extremely accurate electronic tuning device). YouTube is awash with examples.

I’ve looked but can’t find any examples FPM. Can you provide a link please? Thank you.

[Spannko]

Just so we’re all singing from the same song sheet, here’s a bit of background information:

https://www.peterfrazer.co.uk/music/tu ... l#Contents

[ThomasOK]

A piece of music that uses detuned instruments, vocals, etc. for effect will have that effect damaged if the system changes the tune. There is no way loss of the quality of being in tune in a system can have anything but a detrimental effect on the music whether it is beautifully melodic or jarringly atonal.

[Spannko]

Am I right in thinking that “detuned”, from a musical perspective doesn’t mean “out of tune”.

[lejonklou]

Just so we’re all singing from the same song sheet, here’s a bit of background information:

https://www.peterfrazer.co.uk/music/tu ... l#Contents

Love it! Thank you for the link!

[FairPlayMotty]

There are frequent recorded guitar parts that cannot be reproduced by a perfectly tuned guitar (If measured by extremely accurate electronic tuning device). YouTube is awash with examples.

I’ve looked but can’t find any examples FPM. Can you provide a link please? Thank you.

https://youtu.be/38RKc0sYxf4?si=PR6-F6pAzYA_NqTT

Kenny is a band member and session player. His appearance on Car Wheels On A Gravel Road in the nineties was when I first heard him play. He references Neil Young, The Velvet Underground, Miles Davis and John Coltrane.

https://youtu.be/nKeps23l86Q?si=PHxz94eBveR9rfEt

If you need any more links you might want to look for Frusciante, Mayer, Zappa, Weller, Sonic Youth, Jandek or anyone who was involved in experimental jazz.

I suggest that from Rutger's first in/out of tune post the posts get moved - they're off topic from Charlie1's thread intent.

[Rutger]

Music only works when there is a structured order in time - and intentional deviations from that order.

Music only works when the notes are ordered with specific intervals - and intentional deviations from that order.

Cale follows the structure and breaks it on purpose in ‘Black Angel’s Death Song’. You get excitement from his deviations. Reproducing them exactly as he plays them is what we call “in tune” here.

There is no way that the reproduction can improve a musical piece of art. It can only degrade it more or less. If it does a perfect job, it doesn’t degrade it at all. It plays it in perfect tune.

Thanks Lejonklou. This is very true in my opinion. And for a customer, it starts with a good source.

Using a really good source with an average loudspeaker will give you much more musical enjoyment than using a good loudspeaker with an average source.

[Lego]

Am I right in thinking that “detuned”, from a musical perspective doesn’t mean “out of tune”.

I'm guessing yes .The instrument would still be in tune within itself.

Although I think this discussion is reaching Byzantine levels ...lol

I didn't know Joni Mitchell tuned her guitar out of the standard norm,but surely every string on her guitar was in tune with each other,otherwise I think she'd struggle to convey those beautiful tunes.

I can still use the tune dem method to compare something even if the instrument is so called 'out of tune' or the musician plays out of tune .

I first noticed this when I upgraded from Rega 3 to LP 12 and especially to the Lingo .

On Thelonious Monk's album Solo Monk as the the recording gets close to the end you can start to tell that his piano is heading slightly out of tune(didn't notice this on R3) , ie slightly flat ,and as I upgraded the deck it was getting easier to hear how flat it was getting.

Another example is Ornette Coleman.The reason I really love his music is due to his sharp notes rather than the flat he plays.They really convey the melodies and emotion in his tunes.
Also as I upgraded the system the notes sounded more sharp.

He always said he played sharp and flat but in tune.

[matthias]

Using a really good source with an average loudspeaker will give you much more musical enjoyment than using a good loudspeaker with an average source.

Agree,
but this is "non disputandum" here.

[tokenbrit]

How do you determine that it’s a fabulously musical source and that they are terrifically engaging amps if you’re using uncommunicative/unmusical speakers? 🤨

Why use hypothetically crap speakers? Just replace the speakers - job done, hypothetically 😉

If your hypothetical budget is limited, balance it better across your hypothetical system, sure, but still source (& back) first! Hope you feel better soon 🙃

[Charlie1]

How do you determine that it’s a fabulously musical source and that they are terrifically engaging amps if you’re using uncommunicative/unmusical speakers? 🤨

Like I said, assume the system was engaging with 3-4 other speaker models.

Besides, I would hope there is consensus on this forum that Kalla, Sagatun Monos, and Tundra Monos are engaging.

Why use hypothetically crap speakers?

Well, that was the point I was trying to make :) Anyway, I was exaggerating to make a point - just normal unmusical speakers like 90% on the market will do just fine.

[tokenbrit]

.. assume the system was engaging with 3-4 other speaker models.

Besides, I would hope there is consensus on this forum that Kalla, Sagatun Monos, and Tundra Monos are engaging.

.. I was exaggerating to make a point - just normal unmusical speakers like 90% on the market will do just fine.

Just use a pair of the 3-4 other speaker models then 🤪

If you can’t afford a nice musical pair of speakers from the 10%, balance your budget a bit better, but do so between amps & speakers rather than Monos and lesser source… but you knew that, right 😋

[Spannko]

….. just normal unmusical speakers like 90% on the market …..

Sad, but almost true! I’d go as far as saying at least 99%, maybe more 😳 But I wonder if this is the crux of the problem? I don’t know of one loudspeaker, past or present which comes near to reproducing the potential of the most musical sources and amplifiers we have available to us today.

[Charlie1]

Just use a pair of the 3-4 other speaker models then 🤪

If you can’t afford a nice musical pair of speakers from the 10%, balance your budget a bit better, but do so between amps & speakers rather than Monos and lesser source… but you knew that, right 😋

Not really the point I was trying to make but thanks 😀

[Charlie1]

….. just normal unmusical speakers like 90% on the market …..

Sad, but almost true! I’d go as far as saying at least 99%, maybe more 😳

Oh, I was trying to not be too negative but I'm sure you're right.

[tokenbrit]

Just use a pair of the 3-4 other speaker models then 🤪

If you can’t afford a nice musical pair of speakers from the 10%, balance your budget a bit better, but do so between amps & speakers rather than Monos and lesser source… but you knew that, right 😋

Not really the point I was trying to make but thanks 😀

How so? You asked about a system with a level of engagement from all components over one compromised with an unengaging component, particularly uncommunicative/unmusical speakers… Not that a higher system budget &/or higher component price necessarily leads to increased engagement, but I’d argue that the speakers would need to be really bad to prevent you hearing a difference between sources. If you have a component that’s duff, that’s what you focus on upgrading, but if you imagine an unbalanced system, that doesn’t invalidate source first. Or are you postulating that engagement doesn’t follow source first, and that engaging speakers, which seems to be what you’ve had most trouble finding, can spoil a system for you more so than the source?

[Charlie1]

How so? You asked about a system with a level of engagement from all components over one compromised with an unengaging component, particularly uncommunicative/unmusical speakers… Not that a higher system budget &/or higher component price necessarily leads to increased engagement, but I’d argue that the speakers would need to be really bad to prevent you hearing a difference between sources. If you have a component that’s duff, that’s what you focus on upgrading, but if you imagine an unbalanced system, that doesn’t invalidate source first. Or are you postulating that engagement doesn’t follow source first, and that engaging speakers, which seems to be what you’ve had most trouble finding, can spoil a system for you more so than the source?

Ok, I understand your point. Sorry if I'm a bit edgy.

And just quickly, this isn't about my 109s as I'm happy with them, in case anyone was thinking that :)

What you're saying is exactly what I'd been thinking and saying for a long time. However, I think I was wrong.

Let's use pre-exact Linn as an basis. I suspect that KDS/KK/KCT into a popular modern respected non-Linn brand (pick from a long list and I'm sure there are a few exceptions such as your Spendors) would probably be less enjoyable for me than ADS/AK/2200/M109s. Whilst I understand that source first will still be doing it's thing and making more musical sense of the KDS-based system, I suspect that the non-Linn speakers would spoil my enjoyment to such an extent that I'd prefer the cheaper all-Linn system. That's was what I was trying to convey anyway.

[springwood64]

I don’t know of one loudspeaker, past or present which comes near to reproducing the potential of the most musical sources and amplifiers we have available to us today.

I'm intrigued: how do you know?

Maybe it's crazy to expect a couple of fancy cones of paper to recreate any instrument ever created?

[tokenbrit]

How so? You asked about a system with a level of engagement from all components over one compromised with an unengaging component, particularly uncommunicative/unmusical speakers… Not that a higher system budget &/or higher component price necessarily leads to increased engagement, but I’d argue that the speakers would need to be really bad to prevent you hearing a difference between sources. If you have a component that’s duff, that’s what you focus on upgrading, but if you imagine an unbalanced system, that doesn’t invalidate source first. Or are you postulating that engagement doesn’t follow source first, and that engaging speakers, which seems to be what you’ve had most trouble finding, can spoil a system for you more so than the source?

Ok, I understand your point. Sorry if I'm a bit edgy.

And just quickly, this isn't about my 109s as I'm happy with them, in case anyone was thinking that :)

What you're saying is exactly what I'd been thinking and saying for a long time. However, I think I was wrong.

Let's use pre-exact Linn as an basis. I suspect that KDS/KK/KCT into a popular modern respected non-Linn brand (pick from a long list and I'm sure there are a few exceptions such as your Spendors) would probably be less enjoyable for me than ADS/AK/2200/M109s. Whilst I understand that source first will still be doing it's thing and making more musical sense of the KDS-based system, I suspect that the non-Linn speakers would spoil my enjoyment to such an extent that I'd prefer the cheaper all-Linn system. That's was what I was trying to convey anyway.

No apol needed. I had ads/ak/2200 … didn’t find it that great, that’s why I ended up with Lejonklou 😉

Thing with your example is you’re changing 2 things - a better example is either system & just change the speakers… you’ll choose the m109s in either system, and they’ll be more engaging fed by kds/kk/kct I’d bet… better still with Källa and Monos from your prior example 😋

I get what you’re saying but ultimately bad speakers are bad - if they’re bad it doesn’t matter much what they’re fed by, but I don’t think that is or isn’t source first. Personally I’ve not got on with Linn speakers and progressively less with Linn electronics. If I find a speaker I like, I tend to stick with it and improve upstream as I can but that doesn’t tend to be necessary unless I’m missing something from upstream. I used to have some fun budget floorstanders - my local Linn dealer let me listen to them fed by everything up to cd12/kairn/klouts - they just got more & more fun… probably more than substituting them for more expensive Linn Keilidhs or whatever.

There’s a certain presentation that you like. The source is the music. Music first. Enjoy your music 😎

[Charlie1]

Thing with your example is you’re changing 2 things - a better example is either system & just change the speakers…

Not really cos I'm trying to convey a point that (for me) source first wouldn't outweigh the influence of (most) non-Linn speakers.

I get what you’re saying but ultimately bad speakers are bad - if they’re bad it doesn’t matter much what they’re fed by, but I don’t think that is or isn’t source first. Personally I’ve not got on with Linn speakers and progressively less with Linn electronics. If I find a speaker I like, I tend to stick with it and improve upstream as I can but that doesn’t tend to be necessary unless I’m missing something from upstream.

Fair enough and makes sense.

I used to have some fun budget floorstanders - my local Linn dealer let me listen to them fed by everything up to cd12/kairn/klouts - they just got more & more fun… probably more than substituting them for more expensive Linn Keilidhs or whatever.

That's great and I would be the same, but they were fun speakers - a lot of modern speakers are not any fun at all.

[tokenbrit]

I think it's been said that speakers are The most personal choice within a system especially since they have to look good, have waf, work in the room, And be to your musical taste. I don't know that others have expressed it to the point that they can't bear anything but (almost) one brand, but that's you, and that's fine. It does stand source first on its head a bit but, then again, it doesn't as it's your reference point. Interesting then that it has taken so many Linn speakers to find that critical thing that makes each each system right for you in each room, so it's not any (& all) Linn speaker(s) either...

Maybe because speakers are so personal, it's where brands put their personal musical interpretation into a house sound or sonic signature more so than upstream components, which explains your connection with Linn over other brands.

[Spannko]

I don’t know of one loudspeaker, past or present which comes near to reproducing the potential of the most musical sources and amplifiers we have available to us today.

I'm intrigued: how do you know?

Maybe it's crazy to expect a couple of fancy cones of paper to recreate any instrument ever created?

Good question. Describing what we think we know isn’t easy! It’s probably more intuitive knowledge based on a lifetime’s listening.

[Charlie1]

I think it's been said that speakers are The most personal choice within a system especially since they have to look good, have waf, work in the room, And be to your musical taste. I don't know that others have expressed it to the point that they can't bear anything but (almost) one brand, but that's you, and that's fine. It does stand source first on its head a bit but, then again, it doesn't as it's your reference point. Interesting then that it has taken so many Linn speakers to find that critical thing that makes each each system right for you in each room, so it's not any (& all) Linn speaker(s) either...

Maybe because speakers are so personal, it's where brands put their personal musical interpretation into a house sound or sonic signature more so than upstream components, which explains your connection with Linn over other brands.

Yeah, maybe you're right. I'm certainly not sure myself.