Source First theory and how far to take it?

[lejonklou]

What should be removed, ML?

[Music Lover]

probably

[Charlie1]

definitely probably

[lejonklou]

Ok, now I get it! :lol:

[Charlie1]

Recent system changes have re-inforced something I had experienced previously when experimenting with Source First theory. I've recently downgraded from KK1 to Kikkin2, whilst at the same time very slightly improved the Radikal support.

The pre-amp downgrade has resulted in a distinct loss of musical flow. It is very obvious. An effortlessness is gone. A barrier has been raised, so that I find it harder to dial into the music. It is like I must focus my attention on the music in order to appreciate it, rather than it wash over me and be instantly accessible. The music seems laboured in presentation.

All the above mentioned elements are things I associate with musicality. I would expect an A B comparison, using Tune Method, to assign them to the more engaging system. This would seem obvious.

However, what I find interesting is that overall the system now is very slightly more musical, with the slightly improved Radikal support added to the equation. I find music is slightly better holding my interest. And if I listen to an all time favourite track, then I am gently reminded why I like it so much and some of the magic of those early listens is bought back to life. Basically, all the things a good source upgrade can bring in abundance. So these too are very much elements I associate with musicality and the better system, when comparing using Tune Method.

But they can't both be right, can they? Surely these elements should all belong to the same camp i.e one system that is more musical than the other and is so in all these respects. Anyone ever mentions something like superior 'musical flow' and I automatically think this is the more musical system. Yet, in my system, now, I find it harder to dial into the music than before, but once I do, the music in there is actually a little better. Musicians are better - there is more to appricate in what they're doing. It is more engaging.

I think, as things stands, the musical benefit of the better Radikal shelf is not really enough to compensate for the KK effortlessness. But add in just a little more source musicality and it would swing the other way. I don't think it would take much. Certainly, Kikkin2/Urika was a very clear winner over KK1/Linto when I last compared, so it wouldn't need to be anything as big as that.

[SaltyDog]

Sounds similar to the differences in Cara firmware discussions. I recall thinking that the main difference was the perspective of where in the audience I was seated. Like 4th row or 20 something. I never did decide, a new firmware came out that was an improvement. Saved my brain.

Khan this mean a source upgrade in your future?

[Charlie1]

Khan this mean a source upgrade in your future?

I don't think it will be to my taste, based on some of the tune dem feedback I've heard, but would still like to hear it myself and make my own decision. I expect it will offer a more revealing presentation though.

[Charlie1]

Wanted to add to an existing source first thread but shocked how quickly the time has passed since the last post on this thread, back in 2011 ! OMG!

Anyway, today's observation (a few years later) is that I've noticed on many occasions over several years that my brain can flip between the type of system it finds easy to interpret, like different operating modes.

Let's say there is mode A that prefers Lejonklou or Linn tunedem based systems and there's mode B that prefers 70s/80s foot tapping Linn/Naim based systems.

So, for example, a tunedem system will flow really nicely in mode A and an old Naim system will not, but then just a hour or two later it can flip 180 deg the other way around.

Weird.

PS can you imagine the frosty response and put downs this post would get on most forums!

[tpetsch]

Wanted to add to an existing source first thread but shocked how quickly the time has passed since the last post on this thread, back in 2011 ! OMG!

Anyway, today's observation (a few years later) is that I've noticed on many occasions over several years that my brain can flip between the type of system it finds easy to interpret, like different operating modes.

Let's say there is mode A that prefers Lejonklou or Linn tunedem based systems and there's mode B that prefers 70s/80s foot tapping Linn/Naim based systems.

So, for example, a tunedem system will flow really nicely in mode A and an old Naim system will not, but then just a hour or two later it can flip 180 deg the other way around.

Weird.

PS can you imagine the frosty response and put downs this post would get on most forums!

Interesting, can you please elaborate the specific differences between what exactly you are changing in your specific system between modes A & B for clarity?

But what comes to mind is electricity & ambient noise, depending on the time of day my system can sound amazing to just good, summertime AC and heavy industrial use requiring lots of VAR adjustment from the AC utility in certain areas can dirty the AC, also low frequency noise pollution such as car, business and air traffic can also effect playback enjoyment. I do the bulk of my listening late at night when the environment is quiet and the AC is cleaner ...or maybe it's all in my head? But I sure seem to always enjoy late night dedicated listening the most.

[Charlie1]

They are different systems in different rooms.

It’s a good thought ref time of day but I’ve also noticed this with recordings on my phone, so one day a recording might really flow and the next the same recording might sound quite stilted and the timing all off. Nothing has changed but I’m experiencing the same clip quite differently.

I should add that most of the time I sit somewhere in the middle and enjoy both systems for what they offer. I’m not ping ponging from one to the other.

[Hermann]

This impression is also familiar to me, with the large system, the small one and the JBL308 on the computer, as well as others before. Although my satisfaction cannot be increased, sometimes it doesn't sound. Over time I learned to attribute this to my mood. I sorted out technical reasons, including supply-independent solar power.

Some “day forms” are less suitable than others. In most cases, however, it actually disappears a few hours later or the next day.

Interestingly, you mention two modes and compare them with different manufacturer devices. Also my question, which modes are these? I assume the same experiences with both manufacturer devices and tend to hear similarities in both.

P.S. It is not just an idea, but rather a hard experience to exclude these topics elsewhere. And interestingly, exactly these topics are discussed at the audio regulars' table of a very audiophile forum that we attend. Nevertheless, they agree that they would be grilled publicly in the forum by hardliners.

[Charlie1]

Thanks for sharing Hermann and glad I’m not alone.

In answer to your question, the two modes reflect times when one type of musical presentation is making a lot more sense over the other, either early-Linn/Naim or later-Linn/Lejonklou. But I need to add a standard mode where both make good sense, which is where I’m at most of the time.

Does that make sense?

I have no explanation by the way, just sharing a repeated experience over several years.

[tpetsch]

Thanks for sharing Hermann and glad I’m not alone.

In answer to your question, the two modes reflect times when one type of musical presentation is making a lot more sense over the other, either early-Linn/Naim or later-Linn/Lejonklou. But I need to add a standard mode where both make good sense, which is where I’m at most of the time.

Does that make sense?

I have no explanation by the way, just sharing a repeated experience over several years.

Another issue I'm having as I get older is fatigue after exercise, or after a long day, in fact I experienced something similar to what your talking about after a 50k bike ride with the system not sounding as good as I know it should a few hours after the ride.

[Charlie1]

I’m not surprised after cycling that far! Have you not got a car or motorbike :D

I don’t really do exercise, unless you count a couple of 15-minute dog walks each day.

It’s a good point though but don’t think it’s tiredness related (for me) - I am pretty knackered after most work days.

[Hermann]

Being exhausted is not one of my triggers either.

In my opinion, it lies in the background of the current mood, the causes of which I see as a trigger, the inner mode, so to speak. As soon as inner attention is "dispersed", emotional filters may create gaps in relation to external perception, which physically pick up vibrations but evaluate them differently.

In my opinion, internal dissonant states are a reason to change focus within the perceptual spectrum. This gave me a sufficient explanation to turn off the music and enjoy it later.

[Spannko]

The nearer my system is to the way I like to hear music reproduced (musical: ie, tuneful and harmonious) the less frequently I find I’m not enjoying it. It feels like the only component in my system which lets the side down at the moment are my diy loudspeakers ☹️, but the better they get, the longer I can listen to them and with a wider range of music. Will I get to the point where I can listen to any type of music at any time of the day or will they hit a plateau? Will the speakers continue to be the limiting component? My current feeling is that Källa/Boazu will always be better than the best loudspeakers, however only time will tell. Is this “source first” or “worst last”

[beck]

I feel lucky that I have ended in a place where I enjoy the energi and flow of the music be it Beatles or Bach. I did honestly not think it was possible with a digital source but I proved myself wrong. :-)

[tpetsch]

I also find that my system sounds best after it been raining for a little while, maybe it has to do with water saturating the soil and helping with grounding. Then the next evening after a sunny and dry day/dryer soil I'm not getting into the music/system quite the same. ...I can recall a few weeks ago, system sounding unusually fantastic, I went to the kitchen after a few album sides for a glass of water and see it's raining thru the sink window, I had no previous knowledge of rain that evening until I noticed it just then.

[beck]

I also find that my system sounds best after it been raining for a little while, maybe it has to do with water saturating the soil and helping with grounding. Then the next evening after a sunny and dry day/dryer soil I'm not getting into the music/system quite the same. ...I can recall a few weeks ago, system sounding unusually fantastic, I went to the kitchen after a few album sides for a glass of water and see it's raining thru the sink window, I had no previous knowledge of rain that evening until I noticed it just then.

+1

[Charlie1]

Interesting. I had never picked up on that.

[Charlie1]

Being exhausted is not one of my triggers either.

In my opinion, it lies in the background of the current mood, the causes of which I see as a trigger, the inner mode, so to speak. As soon as inner attention is "dispersed", emotional filters may create gaps in relation to external perception, which physically pick up vibrations but evaluate them differently.

In my opinion, internal dissonant states are a reason to change focus within the perceptual spectrum. This gave me a sufficient explanation to turn off the music and enjoy it later.

Must admit I struggled to follow all of that but think I get the core (aka gist) of it.

[Charlie1]

The nearer my system is to the way I like to hear music reproduced (musical: ie, tuneful and harmonious) the less frequently I find I’m not enjoying it. It feels like the only component in my system which lets the side down at the moment are my diy loudspeakers ☹️, but the better they get, the longer I can listen to them and with a wider range of music. Will I get to the point where I can listen to any type of music at any time of the day or will they hit a plateau? Will the speakers continue to be the limiting component? My current feeling is that Källa/Boazu will always be better than the best loudspeakers, however only time will tell. Is this “source first” or “worst last”

You seem to have really settled nicely with Boazu and Kalla.

[Spannko]

The nearer my system is to the way I like to hear music reproduced (musical: ie, tuneful and harmonious) the less frequently I find I’m not enjoying it. It feels like the only component in my system which lets the side down at the moment are my diy loudspeakers ☹️, but the better they get, the longer I can listen to them and with a wider range of music. Will I get to the point where I can listen to any type of music at any time of the day or will they hit a plateau? Will the speakers continue to be the limiting component? My current feeling is that Källa/Boazu will always be better than the best loudspeakers, however only time will tell. Is this “source first” or “worst last”

You seem to have really settled nicely with Boazu and Kalla.

I have 😊