Upgrading Ninka or Lejonklou stereo

u252agz · Post by **u252agz** » 2013-10-03 20:15

I have a klimax renew ds and Akkurate Knotrol running a stereo Tundra and Ninkas, with the upgraded stands. The system sounds great and is a huge improvement compared to tri active ninkas driven by LK140s.

In order to improve the playback, should I upgrade to Lejonklou Monos first or switch the Ninkas to Akkurate 212 / Akkubarik passive, or similar speaker.

Any advice would be welcome. I am using Chord carnival speaker cables but as they are in a steel channel in the floor and in the wall - I am reluctant to change to K400 at the moment.

Thanks

Ozzzy189 · Post by **Ozzzy189** » 2013-10-04 08:27

I'm not sure if 242/212 are the answer, I suppose it depends on what kind of music you like, they not great for rock music for example. I demoed monos against the stereo but my budget kind of dictated my purchase, and besides, I really thought than the stereo tundra was a great upgrade for the price.
I'd recommend a klimax kontrol and linn silvers before changing your speakers. There's a few thoughts about the
Klangelad T1 (?Lol) speakers on this forum, they could be an option perhaps?
It no secret that fredrik is hard at work on a new tundra pre, but it'll be ready when it's ready, and I'm sure it'll be a cracker but be prepared to wait.
It's all good fun!

Ozzzy189 · Post by **Ozzzy189** » 2013-10-04 08:30

I also went to tundra passive from tri amped ninkas, I used 2 lk140 and an lk85. I much prefer my new sound!

mrco99 · Post by **mrco99** » 2013-10-04 08:54

Hi u252agz,

Welcome to the forum.

A little more information would be required to give you some pointers.

What are you expecting from the upgrade or differently put, what are you missing right now?
What is your budget?
Is the Akurate Kontrol an older version, dynamiked or not, or the current one?
And is this your foreseeable only source, or do you need various inputs?

K400 cable is very high regarded, and Fredrik solders the best ones.
Since you already reverted to a passive system, maybe there´s room in your steel profiles for a single K200 cable - aka K400 split in two.

General advise, don´t try to change too much at the same point, as you´ll likely lose track of the individual improvements, and may end up with a less musical system in the end.

Cheers from Amsterdam,

Marco

PS. Do you already have silver interconnects througout your setup?

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2013-10-04 09:23

In theory, upgrading the source will give you the biggest boost in musicality and you're likely to see a lot of KDS's on the market very soon, once Exakt takes off. If supply exceeds demand, then it's likely to push KDS prices down.

Upgrading speakers will probably change the sound most. Ninkas are great, but things have certainly moved on. I really liked the passive Akubariks, but they are a lot of money in the context of the rest of your system. Personally, I'd prefer to upgrade the source first, but would also keep an eye out for a 2nd hand pair of Majik 140s to tie my over for a few years. After that, I would upgrade the pre-amp, by which time there might be a Lejonklou pre-amp on the market.

Also agree with Marco's comments above, ref cabling and taking one step at a time.

u252agz · Post by **u252agz** » 2013-10-04 12:22

Thanks for all the advice- much appreciated.

I ahould have said the Akkurate Knotrol is an AK/1 and both this and the renew are dynamiked. The interconnects are Morgagni cables from Krescendo Hifi.

A good question from Marco- ie what I am missing or what I am expecting. I suppose just ' a better system' to enjoy my music even more, and a nagging feeling that whist the current system sounds great -I might be missing out on an easy upgrade! Budget currently is 5K ie two Monos, used 242s or other speakers.

The end goal is Klimax level source and Akkurate level speakers, with Lejonklou amplification, and value for money - hence the Renew DS.

I would like to keep the Renew DS, for a few years and like the AK/1 as it has a good phono input for my Rega Planar 3, which I have had since 1984, and is of sentimental value. I have my eye on a RP6 but need a home for my RP3.

There is definitely room for the K 400 just the hassle of taking the carpet up and moving furntiture / AV unit etc, and it would be easy to move to the silvers if they were definitely better.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2013-10-04 12:35

u252agz wrote:Budget currently is 5K ie two Monos, used 242s or other speakers.

Since you own a Tundra Stereo, then the Mono's are a safe bet, but have you heard 242s? Taste in speakers is often more personal than other components, so if you haven't already, then I definitely recommend hearing them first.

WIJI · Post by **WIJI** » 2013-10-04 13:06

Another option.....

With £5k you could sell the AK1 and buy a used KK1. That would still leave enough in the pot to upgrade the amp to monos or change the speakers.

Too many choices.....

:)

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2013-10-04 13:16

WIJI wrote:Another option.....

With £5k you could sell the AK1 and buy a used KK1. That would still leave enough in the pot to upgrade the amp to monos or change the speakers.

Too many choices.....

:)

Good idea and preferable to getting 242s imo. Again, expect to see lots of KK1s on the used market, once Exakt sales get going. I'm sure you could get a budget headphone amp that performs well, Rega perhaps.

For the sake of a few hundred, perhaps you could also squeeze in an upgrade from Ninkas to 2nd hand 140s. I made this upgrade and it's worthwhile, especially once you cut the bass by 2db (official Linn mod). Maybe you don't like their look though.

Edit: Minge has a pair of Monos for sale at the moment...

anthony · Post by **anthony** » 2013-10-04 19:28

u252agz wrote:Thanks for all the advice- much appreciated.

I ahould have said the Akkurate Knotrol is an AK/1 and both this and the renew are dynamiked. The interconnects are Morgagni cables from Krescendo Hifi.

A good question from Marco- ie what I am missing or what I am expecting. I suppose just ' a better system' to enjoy my music even more, and a nagging feeling that whist the current system sounds great -I might be missing out on an easy upgrade! Budget currently is 5K ie two Monos, used 242s or other speakers.

The end goal is Klimax level source and Akkurate level speakers, with Lejonklou amplification, and value for money - hence the Renew DS.

I would like to keep the Renew DS, for a few years and like the AK/1 as it has a good phono input for my Rega Planar 3, which I have had since 1984, and is of sentimental value. I have my eye on a RP6 but need a home for my RP3.

There is definitely room for the K 400 just the hassle of taking the carpet up and moving furntiture / AV unit etc, and it would be easy to move to the silvers if they were definitely better.

Get some silvers a nd k200 big improvement.

u252agz · Post by **u252agz** » 2013-10-04 21:12

Thanks for all the advice again - very helpful.

A good body of opinion is in favour of switching to the K200s and silvers and then upgrading the AK/1 to a used KK/1.

When this is done perhaps I should have a think about upgrading Ninkas to M140/212/242

I will leave the Monos for last - in some ways a shame as it would have been the easiest decision to make!

Thanks once again

Anwar

Flatcoat · Post by **Flatcoat** » 2013-10-05 15:08

I was selling Ninkas for a friend and tried them with KDS1/KK1 and Tundra 1.1. Absolutely brilliant - and my guess would be even better with Tundra 1.2. Definitely more enjoyable than MDSi/Twin/212's.

So like others have said, I would consider upgrading the source but I would go for the KDS1 as a replacement for the Renew as a starting point.

The introduction of the Klimax Exakt system will see a significant number of KK1 and KDS1 for sale. I am certainly considering it as long as my Tundra Monos will be compatible with the Klimax Exakt 350 system.

Ozzzy189 · Post by **Ozzzy189** » 2013-10-05 16:00

Monos for sale in the sale section!

Azazello · Post by **Azazello** » 2013-10-06 09:43

If I had your system and £5000 burning in my pocket I would hold out and wait for the Lejonklou preamp, or possibly pick up a 2:nd hand KK (but be prepared to sell it soon).

Regardless of that I would also exchange the Ninkas for a pair of 109's. I believe that 2:nd hand 242s are likley to loose a lot of value for a couple of years to come, so I would probably wait a while before spending money on them.

u252agz · Post by **u252agz** » 2013-10-07 17:11

When will the Lejonklou preamp be signed off - sounds tempting and will be much easier than trying to source a black KK1, assuming it is significantly better than my AK/1.

The positive reviews re KDS1/KK1/tundra stereo/Ninkas suggests I should leave the speakers till last - although i have heard KDS1/KK/tundra stereo/242 and it sounds really good. No direct comparision however.

How much better is the KDS1 likely to be compared to my Klimax renew DS ( sourced from a 2010 KDS, and dynamiked).My original plan was to stick with the KRDS for some time- and it would be quite painful to let it go.

I will proceed with the SIlvers and K400 as this seems to be universally accepted as a prerequisite to any major changes.

Thanks again for the collective wisdom shared on this thread. For novices like me, it is invaluable.

Flatcoat · Post by **Flatcoat** » 2013-10-07 17:38

The KDS1 is a big upgrade from the Klimax Renew DS which is basically the original KDS.

242's are definitely better than Ninkas - they should be as second hand they cost about 7 times more. Also 242's are very revealing so the better the front end is, the better they will sound.

Azazello · Post by **Azazello** » 2013-10-12 15:49

u252agz wrote:I will proceed with the SIlvers and K400 as this seems to be universally accepted as a prerequisite to any major changes.

Don't forget the 109's! They will cost you less than the cables if you trade in the Ninkas.

u252agz · Post by **u252agz** » 2014-03-04 19:54

After all the advice, i have ended up with'KDS1, AK 1, Tundra stereo, 242s , silvers and K200s prepared by Fredrik. The system is just fantastic - i can not describe in words adequately but it has gone from just great to quite addictive.

Thanks for all the advice chaps.

Out of interest Renew DS and blacks to KDS 1 was a revelation and K200 a substantial improvment.

But Ninkas to 242s ( one year old). With above already in place - Oh my god

The other nice thing is that my sneaky with the old Ninkas.single wire passive, sound really good - better than the Ikemi kolektor and triactive LK140s.

u252agz · Post by **u252agz** » 2014-04-01 09:01

As way of an update, I have now upgraded the Tundra stereo to a pair of Monos.

The improvement is again quite marked. Although the stereo was superb - the Monos are significantly better. It sounds as if I have had a source upgrade.

Whilst not quite as dramatic as going from a Renew to a KDS1 - it has improved all aspects from muscality to control of bass and sounding more natural and quite effortless.

Well worth it - the system is now sounding more like the KDS1/KK1/Solos/242s which I remember from my first visit to Rococo, and which unfortunately has become the sound I compare my system to.

Now only the Pre amp left.

I will wait and see if Fredriks new baby can tempt me away from the AK1.

u252agz · Post by **u252agz** » 2014-07-28 18:17

As a further update- I removed the units from the mains sockets where I assumed they would be best and put the KDS on its own 1 metre extension cable ( £2.50 from Morrisons) and the AK/1 , Gaio , and tundra Monos on a separate 1 m cable ( Ak/1 closest to mains).

As predicted from the chaps on the Forum a significant improvement in musicality - not subtle by any means and well worth the time in unplugging replugging etc etc

It never ceases to amaze me how much collective wisdom has been placed on the Forum. For someone who does not have the time to do ABAB comparisons it is invaluable.

u252agz · Post by **u252agz** » 2014-09-22 12:48

FInal Update:

Sagatun Monos have replaced the AK/1.

Huge improvement - did not think this was possible, as the system already sounded really good with the AK/1.

All aspects much, much better - everything just sounds right.

I am able to enjoy at all volumes and not just a narrow band with AK/1.

Change to Sagatun Monos is definitely one of the more dramatic upgrades I have done

I think the system is now better than my original reference of KDS/1, KK1/ Solos and 242.

Only thing left is to swtich to the direct single source input - enjoying the music too much to bother with this at the moment.

u252agz · Post by **u252agz** » 2014-12-08 13:10

Another update:

Single source on Sagatuns makes the music even better - from a very high level to even higher.

Initially - only did this when I could listen by myself with acoustic door closed, undisturbed by the family : to really appreciate the music.

Now I leave the single source on all the time - so good with KDS/1 that I find myself listening less and less to the RP3 ( and therefore do do not have to switch single source off, except for occasional AV use).

Having moved from Ikemi/Kolektor/ tri active LK140s/Ninkas - I am finally adding to my digital music collection and enjoying the new ( and old) music; as are the family.

I thought I was done with upgrades - but now Fredrik has upgraded the Tundra Monos!

Post by **lejonklou** » 2014-12-08 15:01

Thank you for the positive update, u252agz!

I am not done with Tundra Mono 2 yet, but getting close. Just now testing the latest and highest specified thermal interface material available. From Japan. I have to say I'm very impressed by the Japanese. There's now quite a few Japanese state-of-the-art components used in my products.

u252agz · Post by **u252agz** » 2014-12-09 14:48

Fredrik

No need to rush - the upgrade to Sagatun Monos has meant that there is nothing to do other than enjoy the music - as you correctly predicted.

A huge amount of fantastic stuff out there - things I would not have dreamed of trying in the Ikemi/Lk140 days.

Found my Jan Gerberek ( tenor sax) / HIlliard Ensemble download - just mesmerising. Even my wife has had to admit that it sounds rather special - and she usually struggles with any Gregorian Chant .

u252agz · Post by **u252agz** » 2015-01-04 13:23

Needing to add more ports on my Network switch - I changed the GS 105 to a FS 108 - big mistake. It sounded really bad.

Maplins kindly exchanged the FS 108 to a GS 108 and the music is back - possibly even a little better.

Realising I should just stick to advice on the forum - I switched the network cables from the Zone Ripper to the GS 108 and the latter to the KDS; using the recommended microconnect cables.

A definite improvement compared to the previous cables.

Not sure how good my Zone ripper is but the music sounds really good to my ears at the moment and I have no idea of the best 'one box Nas drive' available currently, if I wanted to upgrade.

Harmoni racks not possible at the moment because of aesthetic reasons- I would need 5 shelves and all the wires at the back concealed from view .