lejonklou wrote: ↑2023-03-10 11:13 I think your system sounds awesome.

Awww thanks! That's high praise indeed. It's all thanks to you and the collective wisdom of this forums' members.

lejonklou wrote: ↑2023-03-10 11:13 And I prefer A1/W1. Surprised the difference is so big. Did both of these songs have a video?

Yes that is surprising indeed. What's even more surprising is that A1/W1 were recorded with the video loop turned on!

I posted two sets of clips because I was curious whether the presence of a video loop affected performance or if just having the feature turned on would make a difference whether there was a video or not. Avalon has a video loop, Walking in the Rain does not, but there was still a difference!

This is something everyone can easily try themselves, so why did I bother posting clips? Expectation bias. I was convinced off would be better before I even listened, and after I listened I didn't want to believe what I was hearing. A bit of unbiased feedback was needed.

ThomasOK wrote: ↑2023-03-10 17:58 After listening to the second pair I was forced to go find this and listen to it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifhcWeXIOZs

Maybe I should bring this album to the show?

"Forced" you say? ;-) That's a fantastic cover. Grace does it justice. I love it when artists come up with truly creative and brilliant alternative perspectives on a great song. Newton Faulkner's rendition of Massive Attack's "Teardrop" comes immediately to mind.

If you have room to pack another disc I think Grace Jones would be a welcome addition at the show.

I listened to your clips after the Mike Fremer clip which beck posted in the „More tune method talk“ section and your system brought a smile to my face.
A guy (Mike) who is so long in the audio industry enjoys something which he obviously still got on a bargain but many times more expensive than what you have … and what a difference it is.

…maybe his sophisticated recording screwed it up … maybe not.
I also enjoyed A1 and W1 more.

Thank you for your work Fredrik and thank you all for this Forum.

markiteight wrote: ↑2023-03-10 21:51
Yes that is surprising indeed. What's even more surprising is that A1/W1 were recorded with the video loop turned on!

That is funny! I'm going to try the same test...

springwood64 wrote: ↑2023-03-10 22:37

markiteight wrote: ↑2023-03-10 21:51
Yes that is surprising indeed. What's even more surprising is that A1/W1 were recorded with the video loop turned on!

That is funny! I'm going to try the same test...

Hmmm. My wife and I prefer Avalon with canvas off. A clear difference. I think she nailed it when she described 'canvas on' as sounding like the instruments aren't playing together compared to canvas off. She tested blind, tho I knew which was which.

Does everyone have the Canvas feature available? I do in the Spotify app on my Android phone, but not on my iPad Mini :/ Not sure what that means if enabled in the Android app, but playing via the iPad where the setting is unavailable...

Apparently Canvas is not available on iPad.

I compared in the room and preferred Off within 2 seconds. Jajo made two clips and sent me blind. Instantly preferred Off in those clips and he replied he heard the same in the room.

So with your clips, what did you experience in the room, markiteight? There’s a difference between our systems and that is Källa versus HAKAI. I’m not sure Protokoll reacts the same as the Spotify plugin in Volumio (or any other media player) does.

lejonklou wrote: ↑2023-03-11 00:22 Apparently Canvas is not available on iPad.

I compared in the room and preferred Off within 2 seconds. Jajo made two clips and sent me blind. Instantly preferred Off in those clips and he replied he heard the same in the room.

So with your clips, what did you experience in the room, markiteight? There’s a difference between our systems and that is Källa versus HAKAI. I’m not sure Protokoll reacts the same as the Spotify plugin in Volumio (or any other media player) does.

This is fascinating! When I listen on headphones (AirPods Max or AirPods Pro2) directly to the Spotify app the difference is massive...so much so that a direct comparison isn't even necessary. Canvas off is clearly better. But in the room it wasn't as clear. I wanted to like A2/W2 with Canvas turned off, but there was some hi-fi jiggery pokery going on as well that made me second guess whether it was a trap, and when everyone preferred Canvas on I felt like that confirmed my suspicion.

Couple thoughts: what version of Spotify is everyone running? I'm on *.15.609. When Spotify is streaming to HAKAI the "Playback" category in Settings is not available. I have to switch back to the phone in order to enter Playback and turn Canvas on/off. Do Källa users still have access to Playback when Källa is selected? When I made the recordings (and indeed whenever I compared settings) I had to kill the app and restart it after turning Canvas on or off for the change to take effect. Simply toggling it on or off didn't alter the musical performance. Is that consistent with others' experience?

As I write this I'm rocking the Max's with Canvas off and grooving to, of all things, KISS! That...just...doesn't happen! Now I'm keen to re-examine this on the system at home, but it might be tomorrow evening before I get a chance.

Defender wrote: ↑2023-03-10 22:19 I listened to your clips after the Mike Fremer clip which beck posted in the „More tune method talk“ section and your system brought a smile to my face.
A guy (Mike) who is so long in the audio industry enjoys something which he obviously still got on a bargain but many times more expensive than what you have … and what a difference it is.

…maybe his sophisticated recording screwed it up … maybe not.
I also enjoyed A1 and W1 more.

Thank you for your work Fredrik and thank you all for this Forum.

Okay...that's pretty cool! I haven't had a chance to watch those clips yet but I'm definitely going to have to take a look now! I've always enjoyed Mikey's writing but I kinda lost interest in what he had to say when he reviewed a record player that cost comfortably into the 6 figures, and he took it seriously. I think he even bought the review sample.

I’m on 8.8.15.609 on my iPhone 11, on which I compared. Yes, I can access the Playback settings when playing and if I just pause, change a setting and play again, it has changed.

Funny (or interesting) that on your clip I found A1/W1 clearly better and then could only reproduce the opposite conclusion (better with Canvas off), both live and through a clip.

markiteight wrote: ↑2023-03-10 04:13 Clips as promised:

A1: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zc56hk5n2nfk1 ... 4.MOV?dl=0
A2: https://www.dropbox.com/s/psddsm167cnbe ... 5.MOV?dl=0

W1: https://www.dropbox.com/s/fb8u5bbhzt3oh ... 7.MOV?dl=0
W2: https://www.dropbox.com/s/o3bn7i4594cq0 ... 8.MOV?dl=0

I could not get my head into A1 and W1 finding them a bit weird so I didn’t post anything. Now I have downloaded and listened a lot to your A2 and W2.

I really think I could live with your setup and enjoy it in the A2/W2 version. Well done markiteight!

lejonklou wrote: ↑2023-03-11 00:22 There’s a difference between our systems and that is Källa versus HAKAI. I’m not sure Protokoll reacts the same as the Spotify plugin in Volumio (or any other media player) does.

I'm listening to HAKAI with Android, Spotify version 8.8.16.665, and prefer canvas off, but also preferred the canvas on clips from Mi8.

@markiteight - did you disconnected the front led‘s on your JBLs? did you hear a difference in musicality?

markiteight wrote: ↑2023-03-10 04:13 Clips as promised:

A1: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zc56hk5n2nfk1 ... 4.MOV?dl=0
A2: https://www.dropbox.com/s/psddsm167cnbe ... 5.MOV?dl=0

W1: https://www.dropbox.com/s/fb8u5bbhzt3oh ... 7.MOV?dl=0
W2: https://www.dropbox.com/s/o3bn7i4594cq0 ... 8.MOV?dl=0

Hi Mi8
Defender has directed us this way from the Playground :)
It's an excellent sounding setup and amazing value too of course.
I'm really glad you're enjoying them so much especially as they free up so much funding for other areas of the system.

The reason why Playback is inactive on Hakai is that it is using Spotify Connect. I am not surprised if the results are completely different while using Källa/headphones vs Spotify Connect to Hakai since the way data is transferred is completely different.

lejonklou wrote: ↑2023-03-11 02:50 Funny (or interesting) that on your clip I found A1/W1 clearly better and then could only reproduce the opposite conclusion (better with Canvas off), both live and through a clip.

I began to wonder if I somehow mixed up the clips and we're actually preferring the clips with Canvas off, so I've been backing-and-forthing all afternoon and I still prefer Canvas on through the system, although the difference is much more subtle than through headphones. As a sanity check, here's another pair of clips:

C1: https://www.dropbox.com/s/3pp1oi59s4daq ... 3.MOV?dl=0
C2: https://www.dropbox.com/s/nhu27i3b0nvie ... 4.MOV?dl=0

I'm now on 8.8.16.643, btw.

springwood64 wrote: ↑2023-03-11 10:07 I'm listening to HAKAI with Android, Spotify version 8.8.16.665, and prefer canvas off, but also preferred the canvas on clips from Mi8.

Interesting! I assume the difference in versions is down to iOS vs. Android, but there seems to be more going on too.

beck wrote: ↑2023-03-11 10:04 I really think I could live with your setup and enjoy it in the A2/W2 version. Well done markiteight!

Thanks, Beck! But I don't think I deserve much credit. It's really down to Fredrik, Jajo, Thomas, and the excellent knowledge and advice I've gleaned from this forum. I just plugged it in and hit Play!

Defender wrote: ↑2023-03-11 10:32 @markiteight - did you disconnected the front led‘s on your JBLs? did you hear a difference in musicality?

Keen observation! Nope, the LEDs still there and active, I just covered them in some adhesive backed tinted film so the room isn't illuminated by two bright white spotlights at night.

Charlie1 wrote: ↑2023-03-11 12:28 Hi Mi8
Defender has directed us this way from the Playground :)
It's an excellent sounding setup and amazing value too of course.
I'm really glad you're enjoying them so much especially as they free up so much funding for other areas of the system.

Thanks C1. Fingers crossed you find your way to musical nirvana soon!

jajo wrote: ↑2023-03-11 14:33 The reason why Playback is inactive on Hakai is that it is using Spotify Connect. I am not surprised if the results are completely different while using Källa/headphones vs Spotify Connect to Hakai since the way data is transferred is completely different.

Interesting! I'm curious what the differences are in the way the data is handled.

markiteight wrote: ↑2023-03-12 01:49 Interesting! I'm curious what the differences are in the way the data is handled.

When you are using Spotify Connect, your Hakai acts as the Spotify client and makes the connection to the Spotify servers to stream the data directly. Your computer/iPad/iPhone acts as a pure remote control, telling Hakai what to play. I suspect that Volumio is using the open source SpoCon client for this, which has their own playback settings just like the Spotify client on your computer/iPad/iPhone. Basically none of the audio related settings inside the Spotify client on your computer/iPad/iPhone will have any effect. That is why the "Playback" section becomes greyed out as soon as you select Hakai as output device.

Protokoll, which Källa is using, simply transfers the audio stream from your computer/iPad/iPhone over the network and plays it back. Källa is to be considered as a "virtual sound card". This means that Källa does not need any specific streaming service related clients (like SpoCon) and can play any audio from your connected device. Since Protokoll captures the internal audio stream of the control point, all settings inside of the Spotify client will have an effect on the audio signal that comes out of Källa.

I have made several experiments with the SpoCon software in the past and always found it to be clearly inferior to capturing the audio stream and sending it to the playback device. Also, this approach allows the playback device (Källa in this case) to be optimised to a much greater extent as the "work duties" never change regardless of what material is played at the control point.

Thanks for the clarification, Jajo!

Now it's even more puzzling that any differences exist at all, but they do!

John wrote: ↑2023-01-05 14:10 Autoplay
When you reach the end of an album, playlist, or selection of songs, Spotify automatically plays similar songs so the music never stops.

This is a function of Spotify that I truly enjoy and has led me to some really great music finds. I will keep that one enabled.

Sorry for being OT, but I have to mention that YouTube music's "Autoplay" is way better than Spotify! At lest for me.

There is also some music available there that's not on Spotify (For me: Bonnie Prince Billy, Neil Young).

Azazello wrote: ↑2023-03-13 21:41 Sorry for being OT, but I have to mention that YouTube music's "Autoplay" is way better than Spotify! At lest for me.

I agree! It makes more interesting choices and makes me discover things I had never expected.

markiteight wrote: ↑2023-03-12 03:13 Thanks for the clarification, Jajo!

Now it's even more puzzling that any differences exist at all, but they do!

I have a couple of thoughts regarding your findings, markiteight.

1. It's really odd that the Canvas setting would matter as the control point you're using shouldn't be involved in the playback at all when a plugin is used. It just tells your HAKAI to play that song straight from Spotify's servers. I know, I know, stranger things have happened, but to be certain it really is that setting that makes the difference, could you try it on a few more tracks? Perhaps reverse the order when you have it off and on (thinking the required restart might be the reason?)

2. I have had some more confirmations now that Canvas should be off when playing Spotify to Källa. I'd like to add that to the first post in this thread, but I'd really like to know more about why you get differing results with the plugin on HAKAI first. If that is even possible.

springwood64 wrote: ↑2023-03-11 10:07

lejonklou wrote: ↑2023-03-11 00:22 There’s a difference between our systems and that is Källa versus HAKAI. I’m not sure Protokoll reacts the same as the Spotify plugin in Volumio (or any other media player) does.

I'm listening to HAKAI with Android, Spotify version 8.8.16.665, and prefer canvas off, but also preferred the canvas on clips from Mi8.

Are you also using a Spotify plugin on your HAKAI, springwood? Volumio's?

lejonklou wrote: ↑2023-03-13 23:01 Are you also using a Spotify plugin on your HAKAI, springwood? Volumio's?

Yes. Volumio Spotify Connect2 1.0.5

I'm going to repeat the tests. Jajo's explanation of the mechanisms really implies that we should not hear a difference with HAKAI.

springwood64 wrote: ↑2023-03-14 08:02

lejonklou wrote: ↑2023-03-13 23:01 Are you also using a Spotify plugin on your HAKAI, springwood? Volumio's?

Yes. Volumio Spotify Connect2 1.0.5

I'm going to repeat the tests. Jajo's explanation of the mechanisms really implies that we should not hear a difference with HAKAI.

Anything can have unexpected effects on the performance. It is important to believe your ears even if we cannot explain technically.

However if I was going to make an analogy, this is just as strange as if the type of batteries used in a remote control would affect the performance of a CD-player.

jajo wrote: ↑2023-03-14 16:59

springwood64 wrote: ↑2023-03-14 08:02

lejonklou wrote: ↑2023-03-13 23:01 Are you also using a Spotify plugin on your HAKAI, springwood? Volumio's?

Yes. Volumio Spotify Connect2 1.0.5

I'm going to repeat the tests. Jajo's explanation of the mechanisms really implies that we should not hear a difference with HAKAI.

Anything can have unexpected effects on the performance. It is important to believe your ears even if we cannot explain technically.

However if I was going to make an analogy, this is just as strange as if the type of batteries used in a remote control would affect the performance of a CD-player.

You just had to say that, didn't you? Now I might have to try different batteries in my Lejonklou remote! ;-)

lejonklou wrote: ↑2023-03-13 23:01 to be certain it really is that setting that makes the difference, could you try it on a few more tracks? Perhaps reverse the order when you have it off and on (thinking the required restart might be the reason?)

Certainly! I'll report back after I've spent some time with it.

ThomasOK wrote: ↑2023-03-14 18:18 You just had to say that, didn't you? Now I might have to try different batteries in my Lejonklou remote! ;-)

I trust Fredrik's choice of batteries. I'm sure he tried every AAA on the market and chose the best one. ;-)

markiteight wrote: ↑2023-03-15 02:07

ThomasOK wrote: ↑2023-03-14 18:18 You just had to say that, didn't you? Now I might have to try different batteries in my Lejonklou remote! ;-)

I trust Fredrik's choice of batteries. I'm sure he tried every AAA on the market and chose the best one. ;-)

Oh cr*p: I use a Linn remote... : p Don't know if I have a 'Fredrimote' much less whether the included musically "best" batteries would still hold a charge : ? AAArgh : !

markiteight wrote: ↑2023-03-15 02:07

lejonklou wrote: ↑2023-03-13 23:01 to be certain it really is that setting that makes the difference, could you try it on a few more tracks? Perhaps reverse the order when you have it off and on (thinking the required restart might be the reason?)

Certainly! I'll report back after I've spent some time with it.

ThomasOK wrote: ↑2023-03-14 18:18 You just had to say that, didn't you? Now I might have to try different batteries in my Lejonklou remote! ;-)

I trust Fredrik's choice of batteries. I'm sure he tried every AAA on the market and chose the best one. ;-)

In North America I get Lejonklou remotes without batteries and supply them myself. I can guarantee you that they are the best batteries available at Costco for the price I paid!
But units that ship with remotes include batteries from Sweden. I have not compared them.