New Lejonklou Preamplifier

Post by **lejonklou** » 2009-01-07 21:42

Porcupine wrote:What is the output signal of the "TV out" when I feed the SC with a digital signal ( as my PVR has a digital out)?

Hi Porcupine and welcome here!

I would expect the SC to send out any signal to the 'TV out' output, whether it's from an analogue or digital input. But I'm not 100% sure of this and don't have an SC to try it on at the moment. Maybe someone else can confirm?

If I'm right, the best thing is to do as Broccoli suggests: Use your SC as a source, DA converter and signal switch. Let the Kikkin handle the volume.

In your first post, I suspect you were considering connecting two preamps (Kikkin and SC) to the same inputs on a poweramp. This doesn't work, as the preamps will be playing into eachothers outputs. This will overdrive them both, with terrible sound and potential damage to the output stages (though I think it's unlikely that the Kikkin will break).

The simple rule is that an output should never be connected to another output, neither between sources, preamps or poweramps. In the case of two poweramps, they literally blow eachother up if their outputs are connected!

Azazello · Post by **Azazello** » 2009-01-08 11:32

lejonklou wrote: In the case of two poweramps, they literally blow eachother up if their outputs are connected!

Tell me about it :oops: , man was I glad I had a good insurance company!

stefan · Post by **stefan** » 2009-01-12 14:47

lejonklou wrote:...
I would expect the SC to send out any signal to the 'TV out' output, whether it's from an analogue or digital input. But I'm not 100% sure of this and don't have an SC to try it on at the moment. Maybe someone else can confirm?

If I'm right, the best thing is to do as Broccoli suggests: Use your SC as a source, DA converter and signal switch. Let the Kikkin handle the volume.
...

Yes, I own a SC and can confirm this. I've had a demo last week and Kikkin indeed brings a big improvement compared to SC's internal preamp when playing a CD. It certainly improves a external analog source connected to the SC, in this case a Slipsik4, but I somehow felt this was maybe a little less big than in the case of the internal player.

As you might expect the improvement of connecting the Slipsik directly to Kikkin instead of being switched through the SC is not small. What a great combo that was! Note that we used Tonlägets LP12 with EkosSE and Keel (and Adikt) and the difference here is likely a lot less with my own no-Keel and old Ekos.

Conclusion: It's just fine to switch through the SC with sources like TV, radio, PVR etc but for high quality sorces as DS or LP12 you want to connect them directly to Kikkin. I think it's OK to do some reconnecting when I want to play some LP's but if I also gets a Majik DS I can't really do that between SC, Slipsik and Majik DS.

I might also mention that you can set SC in knekt=source. The you get the same fixed level on Front as on TV-out. SC's internal preamp is completely disabled. Note that you can only use the internal player in this mode and not switch any inputs. I can't give any statement if the SC sounds better this way (tested this connecting the SC to my Television). This is the mode you would use if you have Exotik+DA or Akurate Kontrol.

/Stefan

Post by **lejonklou** » 2009-01-13 21:49

Thanks for the report, Stefan!

I am currently enjoying music with two Kikkins, using one for each channel. Quite an interesting improvement.

Porcupine · Post by **Porcupine** » 2009-01-13 21:53

Thank you all for your helpful answers. It appears though that using the SC as the swiching centre of my system remains a compromise; and my first Linn dealer once said " Don't accept any compromises"

Another possibility which came to mind is using an input expander, such as the QED IX-20. On the input side we would have the SC and the Majik DS; on the output side the Kikkin.

What is the forum's opinion on this option; would this be a good solution and not a compromise? Does anyone has any experience on Qed swich units? The description sounds promising...

:roll:

Post by **lejonklou** » 2009-01-13 22:02

Signal switching isn't easy to get right, it's often worse than adding a really bad interconnect into the signal path. I guess the only way to find out in this case is to compare a separate switch against letting the SC handle the switching.

Haven't heard the IX-20, but I've tried some older QED switches. They did have a clear negative impact on the sound quality.

Anyone else tried the IX-20?

I have to add that although I often declared war on compromises, I have gradually come to realise that there are plenty of compromises in HiFi... Signal switching is just one of the details where you loose a bit of sound quality to gain convenience. That the Kikkin isn't fully dual mono (parts of it are) is a compromise made to keep the price really low. Something I just eliminated by using one for each channel.

Perhaps the quest is about making as few and good compromises as possible?

stefan · Post by **stefan** » 2009-01-13 23:22

Porcupine, I would like to point out that adding a Kikkin to your system do bring significant improvements compared to what you have now, even if you switch your DS through the SC. It's just, once you tried DS directly to Kikkin you don't want it any other way.

ahaa · Post by **ahaa** » 2009-01-16 13:01

Earlier I wrote:

That implies that I need to reconnect the SC for playing DVD. It is unfortunately a significant hassle with tight connectors and a crammed connection panel on the SC. In addition you need to invert the phase on the amps (or on the speakers).

It is amazing what practice can do to improve your skills. I’m currently down to less than 2.5 minutes for changing all of the connectors – controlled and without stress!

No problem to spend less than 5 minutes per listening session to reconnect when the reward is a very significant improvement in sound

matthias · Post by **matthias** » 2009-01-17 14:31

Lejonklou wrote:
I am currently enjoying music with two Kikkins, using one for each channel. Quite an interesting improvement.

Fredrik,

please, would you share with us your experiences regarding this configuration?

matthias

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2009-01-17 14:57

Yes please. Is it nearing Klimax Kontrol territory do you think (without the latest upgrade that is)? Even two Kikkin's is massively cheaper than a 6 or 7 year old KK - and that's if you can get hold of one.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2009-01-17 15:15

I have now experimented a bit more with various mono setups and while I was impressed at first, I no longer feel that it's a cost effective solution. Mainly because at exactly twice the cost, I feel there ought to be a much better performing solution. I will certainly look further into that, but so far I haven't been able to significantly improve upon the Kikkin, regardless of the costs involved. The current design is simply tuned to perform at it's peak and all theoretical "improvements" have so far seemed to make it a little less balanced.

When using two Kikkins, one for each channel, the sound becomes a bit more detailed, more "stereo" and more relaxed. Quite enjoyable, but musically you can hear that in essence, it has the same qualities. Maybe the result is similar when using two Linto's (as some extreme guys do

), I don't have much experience with that, but some people think that it's worth it while others have said it was no major improvement.

When using two Kikkins, I found that they should preferably be fine tuned as a pair, to make certain their power supplies perform almost identically. One should also short circuit the unused input of each Kikkin with a shorted phono connector.

hcl · Post by **hcl** » 2009-01-18 10:37

lejonklou wrote:...When using two Kikkins, I found that they should preferably be fine tuned as a pair, to make certain their power supplies perform almost identically. One should also short circuit the unused input of each Kikkin with a shorted phono connector.

Makes sense. Did You also try to "shorten" with a >0 ohm input impedance? It might yield a slightly better result.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2009-01-18 15:46

Yes, but only a few different values. 0 ohms seemed to be the best and the higher the number, the less effect on the sound it had.

Thanks for the tip, I will check this value more closely.

christian · Post by **christian** » 2009-02-22 12:46

Hi

This is my first post to this forum. I had the opportunity to test some of the Lejonklou products at home in my own system so I thought I let you know my findings.

I tried the Kikkin and also the Slipsik 4. I might add that the system to this point looked like this: LP12 (Lingo2,Trampolin2, Cirkus, Ekos 2, T-Cable, Adikt) Exotik +DA, AV2250, Espek and Sizmik 10.25. My most recent addition was the Sizmik.

Anyway I disconnected the Exotik and connected the Kikkin and the Slipsik. I was immediately very impressed! These products really put the music in the focus and that is what I want to accomplish with my system. Since the Kikkin changes the phase I disconnected and carried out the Sizmik before I started the listening sessions. With the Kikkin, I don’t need the Sizmik. My Espeks where all over sudden producing low frequencies that I had never heard from them before. When I added the Sizmik I also found that it added value to all frequencies, but with the Kikkin everything that the Sizmik added was there “by it self” and so much more. So by now I have sold the Sizmik.

When comparing to the Exotik one must bare in mind that the Exotik has so much more functionality, so in many cases the Kikkin just will not do. But when comparing them as merely preamps the combination of the Slipsik and the Kikkin is really much better. The Exotik is not even close in terms of musical performance and I was actually surprised that the difference was this big. I would say that the difference was really substantial.

An example is when I was playing a record by James Taylor there is a part where a single acoustic guitar is playing a short sequence of 4 tones. Then they add a piano playing the same together with the guitar. I have always though that they seem a bit out of tune. As if the two instruments are not tuned exactly the same way. But when played with the Slipsik/Kikkin everything is exactly right!

I do play both CD and vinyl, but vinyl is by far my first choice. When changing source I simply have to change signal cables. I have showed this procedure to my wife and although she thought it to be an “idiotic solution”, she eventually said that she could live with it.
Of course by now you understand that I have placed and order for the Kikkin and the Slipsik and now eagerly await them.

Another benefit was that by selling the Exotik and the Sizmik I was able to raise funds to order the Keel upgrade for the LP12, which I have dreamed about for a long time.

The Lejonklou products really represent a tremendous value for money and I am very happy to have ordered them.
:D

Lego · Post by **Lego** » 2009-02-23 16:56

I think with people having a more sedentary lifestyle these days I think it can be only good for ones health if you have to walk 2 metres once or twice a night to change the inters!!??
I wish my Kairn would hurry up and break so I can buy the Kikkin.
Congratulations on such a great product Maestro it reminds me of the days Linn used to announce a new product and you would get excited about how it would blow everything away at half the price.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2009-03-25 01:16

Lego,

while humility prevents me from accepting the title, your words must be among the highest praises I've received.

I got into Linn during those days when the LK1 was frequently demonstrated against very expensive alternatives and it won every time. I had no hope of being able to afford any exclusive audiophile gear, but the LK1 was so superior that in comparison it felt like a bargain. I really wanted one.

My first Linn product became an Axis and it too blew away the turntables I compared it with. A friend had a Rega, which also provided great fun. I was heading for a computer career back then but the musical experiences I got with these machines made my interest in electronics turn into a new direction.

Computers would probably have been more profitable, but I can't imagine having any more fun than I do know. Lots of great feedback on the Kikkin, sold three of them this week and tomorrow I'll be tuning a new prototype circuit. Life is great!

Broccoli · Post by **Broccoli** » 2009-03-26 18:12

I've had my Kikkin for a few weeks now (replacing the preamp in an SC) and I am also extremely happy with the sound quality of it!

However, I have two things that I'm not so happy about. The first is the flashing colour lamp that indicates that the preamp is muted. I always mute my preamp when I'm not playing music, since otherwise my poweramps tend to go in and out of standby due to the noise from my Sneaky or riaa (and my 5105 makes a real loud *thump* when going into standby, so I really want to avoid it).

I could of course lower the volume to 0, but that is rather user unfriendly since I then have to repeat the remote command quite long (which relates to my other point below). (Also note that 0 doesn't mean mute, but rather -80dB.)

The other thing is that the receiver of remote commands is pretty sensitive when it comes to what angle your pointing at, much more so than Linn equiment usually is. (Yes, I'm lazy, but it's soooo nice not having to get out of bed to control my hifi.) I realise it's harder to fix this thing than the first.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2009-03-26 22:21

Hi Broccoli and thank you for the feedback!

Mute problem: The idea behind making the LED flash during mute was that this function would only be used for short periods of time. Like when cleaning your stylus or answering the phone.

One way to solve your problem would be to make the flashing LED fade out after a while. But then it could result in a surprise: Someone listens very loud, then mutes the Kikkin and goes away. The Kikkin LED fades out. Later music is put on but there is no sound. One press on +vol will then make Kikkin unmute and return to the very high volume. So the flashing does communicate something important: "I am muted and will return to this (colour) volume"

Regarding your 5105 that goes in and out of standby with a large thump: Is it just one channel or both? This is not normal, but a common fault in the 5105, which can be repaired. Either a voltage regulator or a transistor needs to be replaced. I also wonder whether the safety recall repair has been done on it. If not, it does run the risk of suddenly blowing up, together with your speaker drive units!

When the thump issue (and if applicable, also the safety recall!) has been fixed, you can adjust the input level sensitivity at the back of the 5105, so that it only turns on when music is being played - not by noise. My guess is that yours is set to max sensitivity and the fix is to turn it down just a little bit. If you lower it too much, it won't turn on until you play music quite loud.

This should fix your problem and you will no longer need to always leave the Kikkin in mute state. Are there any other amps in your system besides the 5105 that turn on and off in a way you don't want them to?

Remote receiver sensitivity: If this becomes a problem or not depends on how strong the signal from your remote is and what angles and distances you want to use between remote and Kikkin.

The reason why Kikkin needs the remote to be pointed in it's (approximate) direction is that the receiver is looking out through a 2 mm hole in the front plate. The hole is exactly as large as the LED, for aesthetic reasons. If the hole is made larger (which I will happily arrange for you if you so wish), it becomes more receptive. If the receiver is put outside of the box (it will need a thin cable going to the Kikkin) it will become super receptive and can often be controlled from another room, relying on the signal to bounce on the walls.

So in this case, it's a compromise between a discrete front plate and high sensitivity to IR commands.

Broccoli · Post by **Broccoli** » 2009-03-27 16:30

Thanks a lot Fredrik!

I suspected that was the reason for the flashing light when muted, maybe it's best that way. And regarding the hole, I don't want to mess up the design of course! I think I'll buy one of these instead (RF remote extender), then I don't even have to bother pointing in the direction of the Kikkin when I want to control it from my bed :)

Regarding my 5105, I'm pretty certain I checked the serial number with Linn before I bought it (second hand). And the thump is no louder than I've heard from other Linn products, so I didn't think that was anything wrong (the worst in this regard the SC I had before). But I'll definitely look into this, thanks!

Post by **lejonklou** » 2009-03-27 20:06

Yes, a remote extender should work fine.

A very loud thump is not normal. If you've heard it from other Linn amps it could indicate that they were faulty as well.

What I mean with a very loud thump is one that visibly moves the bass units (if the amp is connected to the bass).

The SC doesn't have a power amp, so whether it thumps or not isn't really important in my opinion. The Kikkin has a very loud thump as well and this is pointed out in the manual. But this should never be heard, as the rule is to always switch the power amps off first. Before turning preamps or sources off. And always switch the power amps on last.

Broccoli · Post by **Broccoli** » 2009-03-28 13:04

Maybe we should move these posts to a thread of its own?

It is only one of the channels that have such a loud thump. The thump is loud only when going into standby, not when going out of it, and the bass unit is definitly moving visibly.

I have emailed Linn to make certain the safety recall has been done on my unit.

I could lower the input level sensitivity, but I already have to play pretty loud to bring it out of standby, so I'd rather not.

The other models that have made noise when going into standby has been the SC and a Classik. I guess I didn't realise there was a difference here between power amps and other sorts of units.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2009-03-29 17:00

Difficult to move these posts as they partly contain things about the Kikkin...

One channel thumps? Sounds like the problem I'm thinking of. You should definitely get this fixed. You will not only get rid of the thump and get a standby function that behaves normally, your amp will also sound clearly better.

Please advice if I can be of any help with this - either fixing the amp or supporting someone else who is willing to fix it.

Broccoli · Post by **Broccoli** » 2009-03-29 17:21

You're so extremely helpful Fredrik :-) First check is to see if it's been back to Linn. If not I'll get back to you!

Post by **lejonklou** » 2009-04-16 23:03

Have you found anything out regarding the 5105, Broccoli?

Broccoli · Post by **Broccoli** » 2009-04-17 13:23

lejonklou wrote:Have you found anything out regarding the 5105, Broccoli?

Yes. The safety recall has been made, there's a white sticker at the bottom of the amp indicating this. (Though it hasn't been sent back to Linn, so it must have been done by a dealer.)

My dealer (Anders at Tonläget) suggested that it could be one of the active cards in the amp causing my problem. So I figured I will just disconnect them and see if the problem disappears. However, I have not yet taken the time to do this so I still don't know for sure whether if it's the cards or the amp itself causing my troubles. I will try to find time this weekend to do it.